In that "Object-Oriented" was coined by Alan Kay I think it is still fair to say that Smalltalk is the original. However, if it would improve the read-ability of our home page (by not reigniting deep flames of resentment and/or purism) I wouldn't mind going with 'pioneering' instead of 'original'.
Just my 2 cents.
On 12/3/05, karl karl.ramberg@chello.se wrote:
I'm forwarding to the list. What do people think ?
---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Max Hailperin max@gustavus.edu To: karl karl.ramberg@chello.se Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2005 07:11:41 -0600 Subject: Re: [Webteam] Suggestion+for+Squeak+Website On Dec 3, 2005, at 2:55 AM, karl wrote:
Max Hailperin skrev:
The Squeak home page's claim that "Smalltalk is the original object oriented language" is historically suspect. That honor is usually given to Simula.
Smalltalk is inspired by Simula. Simula is a extension to Algol. The term object oriented was coined by Alan Kay describing Smalltalk Smalltalk was the first objects- all-the-way-down system. Take a look at http://gagne.homedns.org/~tgagne/contrib/ EarlyHistoryST.html The article is flawed by lot's of spelling errors :-(
karl
I'm familiar with Kay's HOPL paper, and I stand by my assertion that making a bald claim that Smalltalk is the original OO language is suspect. Because definitions are fuzzy, claims like this can't be judged true or false. However, the credibility of the Squeak project would be enhanced if the web page were to make instead a claim that would rally consensus support, rather than one that would divide readers into those who agree and those who disagree. Just by substituting the words "a pioneering" for "the original", you would have a claim that no one would object to, that would be respectful of the important work that Dahl and Nygaard did on Simula, and that would still accurately reflect the importance of Smalltalk. It is of course your web page, and you are welcome to accept or reject my advice as you choose. I'm just trying to be helpful by making a suggestion, not trying to get into a debate. -max
Webteam mailing list Webteam@lists.squeakfoundation.org http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/webteam
-- Jason Rogers
"I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me." Galatians 2:20
Jason Rogers wrote:
In that "Object-Oriented" was coined by Alan Kay I think it is still fair to say that Smalltalk is the original. However, if it would improve the read-ability of our home page (by not reigniting deep flames of resentment and/or purism) I wouldn't mind going with 'pioneering' instead of 'original'.
Just my 2 cents.
we could 'enhance' it by saying something like: 'the most significant pioneering'
which is a positioning claim.
On 12/3/05, karl karl.ramberg@chello.se wrote:
I'm forwarding to the list. What do people think ?
---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Max Hailperin max@gustavus.edu To: karl karl.ramberg@chello.se Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2005 07:11:41 -0600 Subject: Re: [Webteam] Suggestion+for+Squeak+Website On Dec 3, 2005, at 2:55 AM, karl wrote:
Max Hailperin skrev:
The Squeak home page's claim that "Smalltalk is the original object oriented language" is historically suspect. That honor is usually given to Simula.
Smalltalk is inspired by Simula. Simula is a extension to Algol. The term object oriented was coined by Alan Kay describing Smalltalk Smalltalk was the first objects- all-the-way-down system. Take a look at http://gagne.homedns.org/~tgagne/contrib/ EarlyHistoryST.html The article is flawed by lot's of spelling errors :-(
karl
I'm familiar with Kay's HOPL paper, and I stand by my assertion that making a bald claim that Smalltalk is the original OO language is suspect. Because definitions are fuzzy, claims like this can't be judged true or false. However, the credibility of the Squeak project would be enhanced if the web page were to make instead a claim that would rally consensus support, rather than one that would divide readers into those who agree and those who disagree. Just by substituting the words "a pioneering" for "the original", you would have a claim that no one would object to, that would be respectful of the important work that Dahl and Nygaard did on Simula, and that would still accurately reflect the importance of Smalltalk. It is of course your web page, and you are welcome to accept or reject my advice as you choose. I'm just trying to be helpful by making a suggestion, not trying to get into a debate. -max
Webteam mailing list Webteam@lists.squeakfoundation.org http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/webteam
-- Jason Rogers
"I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me." Galatians 2:20 _______________________________________________ Webteam mailing list Webteam@lists.squeakfoundation.org http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/webteam
Dear Max and webteam,
Jason Rogers jacaetevha@gmail.com wrote:
In that "Object-Oriented" was coined by Alan Kay I think it is still fair to say that Smalltalk is the original. However, if it would improve the read-ability of our home page (by not reigniting deep flames of resentment and/or purism) I wouldn't mind going with 'pioneering' instead of 'original'.
I am the author of the current first page and yes, I am aware of the relationship/history of Simula/Smalltalk etc. Especially since I am from Scandinavia. :)
The intention was not to belittle Simula (being the first language with object oriented ideas). I still would call Smalltalk the first object *oriented* language. In fact, AFAIK Simula didn't even use those terms when introduced, but more importantly Smalltalk is totally *oriented* around objects. Simula is not.
But you are right - no need to use a phrase inviting needless discussion :). How about:
"When Smalltalk was created more than 35 years ago it *defined the term object orientation* and is the first language in which *everything is built from objects*. Smalltalk is deeply inspired by ideas from especially Simula, Sketchpad and Lisp and even today Smalltalk sets the bar for object oriented dynamically typed interactive languages and environments."
Or variations on the above? We should also make "Simula", "Sketchpad" and "Lisp" into proper links.
regards, Göran
Sounds like a reasonable approach to me. -max
On Dec 20, 2005, at 4:50 PM, goran@krampe.se wrote:
Dear Max and webteam,
Jason Rogers jacaetevha@gmail.com wrote:
In that "Object-Oriented" was coined by Alan Kay I think it is still fair to say that Smalltalk is the original. However, if it would improve the read-ability of our home page (by not reigniting deep flames of resentment and/or purism) I wouldn't mind going with 'pioneering' instead of 'original'.
I am the author of the current first page and yes, I am aware of the relationship/history of Simula/Smalltalk etc. Especially since I am from Scandinavia. :)
The intention was not to belittle Simula (being the first language with object oriented ideas). I still would call Smalltalk the first object *oriented* language. In fact, AFAIK Simula didn't even use those terms when introduced, but more importantly Smalltalk is totally *oriented* around objects. Simula is not.
But you are right - no need to use a phrase inviting needless discussion :). How about:
"When Smalltalk was created more than 35 years ago it *defined the term object orientation* and is the first language in which *everything is built from objects*. Smalltalk is deeply inspired by ideas from especially Simula, Sketchpad and Lisp and even today Smalltalk sets the bar for object oriented dynamically typed interactive languages and environments."
Or variations on the above? We should also make "Simula", "Sketchpad" and "Lisp" into proper links.
regards, Göran
goran@krampe.se wrote:
Dear Max and webteam,
Jason Rogers jacaetevha@gmail.com wrote:
In that "Object-Oriented" was coined by Alan Kay I think it is still fair to say that Smalltalk is the original. However, if it would improve the read-ability of our home page (by not reigniting deep flames of resentment and/or purism) I wouldn't mind going with 'pioneering' instead of 'original'.
I am the author of the current first page and yes, I am aware of the relationship/history of Simula/Smalltalk etc. Especially since I am from Scandinavia. :)
The intention was not to belittle Simula (being the first language with object oriented ideas). I still would call Smalltalk the first object *oriented* language. In fact, AFAIK Simula didn't even use those terms when introduced, but more importantly Smalltalk is totally *oriented* around objects. Simula is not.
But you are right - no need to use a phrase inviting needless discussion :). How about:
"When Smalltalk was created more than 35 years ago it *defined the term object orientation* and is the first language in which *everything is built from objects*. Smalltalk is deeply inspired by ideas from especially Simula, Sketchpad and Lisp and even today Smalltalk sets the bar for object oriented dynamically typed interactive languages and environments."
Say it's strongly typed as well, this allways comes up in the 'type' discussions ;-)
Or variations on the above? We should also make "Simula", "Sketchpad" and "Lisp" into proper links.
Yup Karl
regards, Göran _______________________________________________ Webteam mailing list Webteam@lists.squeakfoundation.org http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/webteam
Hi!
karl karl.ramberg@chello.se wrote:
Say it's strongly typed as well, this allways comes up in the 'type' discussions ;-)
Yes, good idea. I can squeeze that in. :)
Or variations on the above? We should also make "Simula", "Sketchpad" and "Lisp" into proper links.
Yup Karl
Good then, I will fix it after hearing the response from Max.
regards, Göran
FWIW: I like it.
On 12/21/05, goran@krampe.se goran@krampe.se wrote:
Hi!
karl karl.ramberg@chello.se wrote:
Say it's strongly typed as well, this allways comes up in the 'type' discussions ;-)
Yes, good idea. I can squeeze that in. :)
Or variations on the above? We should also make "Simula", "Sketchpad" and "Lisp" into proper links.
Yup Karl
Good then, I will fix it after hearing the response from Max.
regards, Göran _______________________________________________ Webteam mailing list Webteam@lists.squeakfoundation.org http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/webteam
-- Jason Rogers
"I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me." Galatians 2:20
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