Dear all,
I think now a time came to finally choose a platform and to upgrade our website. You know, Jun with exams is over and every Squeaker has now a time. Holidays? What holidays? ;)
So, we have two proposals on-line:
Aida/Web/Scribo based: http://squeaksite.aidaweb.si/ Seaside/Pier based: http://squeak.lukas-renggli.ch/
One is also mine as you know, so I will from now on always declare in advance if I speak as a webteam leader or a proposer. Now I'm speaking as a team leader. I promise to be as honest as possible.
I propose that the end of July is a deadline to a final decision. In the meantime both contenders should:
- prepare a replica of current website with all existing features and the same design - prepare a Contact Us solution to prevent spam
Any suggestions, any comments?
Best regards Janko Web team leader
One is also mine as you know, so I will from now on always declare in advance if I speak as a webteam leader or a proposer. Now I'm speaking as a team leader. I promise to be as honest as possible.
Sorry Janko, but what you are doing to the Smalltalk community in the past few months can't be taken serious. There are other things much more fun than to play games with you.
Lukas Renggli wrote:
One is also mine as you know, so I will from now on always declare in advance if I speak as a webteam leader or a proposer. Now I'm speaking as a team leader. I promise to be as honest as possible.
Sorry Janko, but what you are doing to the Smalltalk community in the past few months can't be taken serious. There are other things much more fun than to play games with you.
Lukas, please elaborate or even better, stay away of such comments and learn to compete as a gentleman!
Janko
On Mon, Jul 07, 2008 at 07:18:12PM +0200, Lukas Renggli wrote:
One is also mine as you know, so I will from now on always declare in advance if I speak as a webteam leader or a proposer. Now I'm speaking as a team leader. I promise to be as honest as possible.
Sorry Janko, but what you are doing to the Smalltalk community in the past few months can't be taken serious. There are other things much more fun than to play games with you.
This post seems rude and vague to me, and also makes no sense from my perspective. I see no games involved, just a desire to make the website more useful. If that is a game, it is one well worth playing :)
2008/7/7 Matthew Fulmer tapplek@gmail.com:
On Mon, Jul 07, 2008 at 07:18:12PM +0200, Lukas Renggli wrote:
One is also mine as you know, so I will from now on always declare in advance if I speak as a webteam leader or a proposer. Now I'm speaking
as a
team leader. I promise to be as honest as possible.
Sorry Janko, but what you are doing to the Smalltalk community in the past few months can't be taken serious. There are other things much more fun than to play games with you.
This post seems rude and vague to me
I agree.
Nicolas
, and also makes no sense
from my perspective. I see no games involved, just a desire to make the website more useful. If that is a game, it is one well worth playing :)
-- Matthew Fulmer -- http://mtfulmer.wordpress.com/ _______________________________________________ Webteam mailing list Webteam@lists.squeakfoundation.org http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/webteam
Guys , if you not come to conclusion for this time, i will propose to solve this by board. And proposal will be following: roll a coin. - Heads for Seaside, Tails for Aida
or if it hurts someone's feelings, first we will roll a coin, which platform will be Heads and which Tails.
Igor Stasenko wrote:
Guys , if you not come to conclusion for this time, i will propose to solve this by board. And proposal will be following: roll a coin.
- Heads for Seaside, Tails for Aida
or if it hurts someone's feelings, first we will roll a coin, which platform will be Heads and which Tails.
Speaking as a proposer: it seems that you won't need it. Unfortunately the other contender seems to quit and now you won't be able to see strenghts and deficiencies of both proposals as good as you would in a good and fair competition. Unfortunately.
It was my pleasure to show all what Aida/Scribo is able to do through the competition, well, ok, we will continue and prepare the site to the end anyway.
Janko
On Mon, Jul 07, 2008 at 06:24:56PM +0200, Janko Miv??ek wrote:
So, we have two proposals on-line:
Aida/Web/Scribo based: http://squeaksite.aidaweb.si/ Seaside/Pier based: http://squeak.lukas-renggli.ch/
Here is how I stand on this issue:
Usability:
I have been using Swiki and SmallWiki for a while (1.5 years), and I find them very easy to use. Pier is thus also very easy for me to use, and it is also nicely documented.
From what I have seen of Scribo, it is not intended for people
who have ever used a wiki before, but for business people who live and breathe word, and cannot imagine a markup language. I don't like it's rich text editor, and much prefer a simple wiki markup system, regardless of syntax. I also find it's method of adding new pages extremely un-intuitive, and I also cannot figure out how to add non-document resources to the website, which is as simple as a drop-down box in pier (In the add command, you choose what you want to create. Default choice is a wiki page)
Familiarity:
One big thing that Scribo has going for it is that it is under active development, and that at least one of the developers (especially Janko) is always on IRC to answer questions and listen to suggestions.
Lukas is not, but there are other pier developers on IRC (like Keith), but they are not as intimately familiar with Pier as Janko is with Scribo.
Overall, I am in favor of Pier
I like Pier too, as I've argued for it before on this mailing list. I suggest that the people who do work on the site, the webteam, should have some greater say in this selection -- simply because they are the ones that are going to use it. I'm familiar with Pier, but Aida looks very capable as well. The nice thing about Pier is that we have several users and developers of Pier amongst us.
On Thu, Jul 17, 2008 at 5:05 PM, Matthew Fulmer tapplek@gmail.com wrote:
On Mon, Jul 07, 2008 at 06:24:56PM +0200, Janko Miv??ek wrote:
So, we have two proposals on-line:
Aida/Web/Scribo based: http://squeaksite.aidaweb.si/ Seaside/Pier based: http://squeak.lukas-renggli.ch/Here is how I stand on this issue:
Usability:
I have been using Swiki and SmallWiki for a while (1.5 years), and I find them very easy to use. Pier is thus also very easy for me to use, and it is also nicely documented.
From what I have seen of Scribo, it is not intended for people
who have ever used a wiki before, but for business people who live and breathe word, and cannot imagine a markup language. I don't like it's rich text editor, and much prefer a simple wiki markup system, regardless of syntax. I also find it's method of adding new pages extremely un-intuitive, and I also cannot figure out how to add non-document resources to the website, which is as simple as a drop-down box in pier (In the add command, you choose what you want to create. Default choice is a wiki page)
Familiarity:
One big thing that Scribo has going for it is that it is under active development, and that at least one of the developers (especially Janko) is always on IRC to answer questions and listen to suggestions.
Lukas is not, but there are other pier developers on IRC (like Keith), but they are not as intimately familiar with Pier as Janko is with Scribo.
Overall, I am in favor of Pier
-- Matthew Fulmer -- http://mtfulmer.wordpress.com/
Brad Fuller wrote:
I like Pier too, as I've argued for it before on this mailing list. I suggest that the people who do work on the site, the webteam, should have some greater say in this selection -- simply because they are the ones that are going to use it. I'm familiar with Pier, but Aida looks very capable as well. The nice thing about Pier is that we have several users and developers of Pier amongst us.
Speaking as proposer: I think mastering Aida/Scribo isn't a big deal as others already feel too. Also, as you can see, we deliver, and that's not only me. Maybe I'm the loudest but Nicolas made quite some things on our proposal, not to mention that he is the main developer of Scribo recently. And he is already expressed a will to join webteam in case Scribo is selected for squeak.org.
Best regards Janko
On Thu, Jul 17, 2008 at 5:05 PM, Matthew Fulmer tapplek@gmail.com wrote:
On Mon, Jul 07, 2008 at 06:24:56PM +0200, Janko Miv??ek wrote:
So, we have two proposals on-line:
Aida/Web/Scribo based: http://squeaksite.aidaweb.si/ Seaside/Pier based: http://squeak.lukas-renggli.ch/Here is how I stand on this issue:
Usability:
I have been using Swiki and SmallWiki for a while (1.5 years), and I find them very easy to use. Pier is thus also very easy for me to use, and it is also nicely documented.
From what I have seen of Scribo, it is not intended for people
who have ever used a wiki before, but for business people who live and breathe word, and cannot imagine a markup language. I don't like it's rich text editor, and much prefer a simple wiki markup system, regardless of syntax. I also find it's method of adding new pages extremely un-intuitive, and I also cannot figure out how to add non-document resources to the website, which is as simple as a drop-down box in pier (In the add command, you choose what you want to create. Default choice is a wiki page)
Familiarity:
One big thing that Scribo has going for it is that it is under active development, and that at least one of the developers (especially Janko) is always on IRC to answer questions and listen to suggestions.
Lukas is not, but there are other pier developers on IRC (like Keith), but they are not as intimately familiar with Pier as Janko is with Scribo.
Overall, I am in favor of Pier
-- Matthew Fulmer -- http://mtfulmer.wordpress.com/
On Fri, Jul 18, 2008 at 1:19 AM, Janko Mivšek janko.mivsek@eranova.si wrote:
Speaking as proposer: I think mastering Aida/Scribo isn't a big deal as others already feel too. Also, as you can see, we deliver, and that's not only me. Maybe I'm the loudest but Nicolas made quite some things on our proposal, not to mention that he is the main developer of Scribo recently. And he is already expressed a will to join webteam in case Scribo is selected for squeak.org.
Just want to mention that the webteam requires skills to maintain both sides: the content and any update/bugs/special-enhancements to the image on the server.
Le vendredi 18 juillet 2008 à 10:19 +0200, Janko Mivšek a écrit :
Brad Fuller wrote:
I like Pier too, as I've argued for it before on this mailing list. I suggest that the people who do work on the site, the webteam, should have some greater say in this selection -- simply because they are the ones that are going to use it. I'm familiar with Pier, but Aida looks very capable as well. The nice thing about Pier is that we have several users and developers of Pier amongst us.
Speaking as proposer: I think mastering Aida/Scribo isn't a big deal as others already feel too. Also, as you can see, we deliver, and that's not only me. Maybe I'm the loudest but Nicolas made quite some things on our proposal, not to mention that he is the main developer of Scribo recently. And he is already expressed a will to join webteam in case Scribo is selected for squeak.org.
Yes, of course I would be happy to help you guys (whether you choose Scribo or any other CMS).
Nicolas
Hi Matthew,
Speaking as proposer: let me start answering you part by part, because discussion on every your point separately is important.
From what I have seen of Scribo, it is not intended for people
who have ever used a wiki before, but for business people who live and breathe word, and cannot imagine a markup language. I don't like it's rich text editor, and much prefer a simple wiki markup system, regardless of syntax.
This dilemma I actually had by myself when starting developing Scribo precedesor 5 years ago. We started with Wiki markup (which is still possible in Scribo) but end users just don't like it. Yes, those end users are secretaries etc, definitively not programmers.
But let we ask ourself about our user base. Who will be authors of content of squeak.org in the future? As you know the plan is to broaden author base so that all subcommunities will maintain its part of website by their own.
When you broaden author base you can soon expect unfamiliarity with Wiki markup syntax, not to mention that anyone really like to know many different syntaxes for many different Wikis (Wikipedia, SmallWiki, WikiWorks etc.).
On the other side anyone is immediately familiar with those buttons in rich text editor. Conclusion is therefore obvious: if we want to succeed with broadening author base, we need to make more familiar content editing. And rich text editor is more familiar, there is not doubt on that.
Best regards Janko
Why just not support both ways and put point in this discussion? :)
2008/7/18 Janko Mivšek janko.mivsek@eranova.si:
Hi Matthew,
Speaking as proposer: let me start answering you part by part, because discussion on every your point separately is important.
From what I have seen of Scribo, it is not intended for people
who have ever used a wiki before, but for business people who live and breathe word, and cannot imagine a markup language. I don't like it's rich text editor, and much prefer a simple wiki markup system, regardless of syntax.
This dilemma I actually had by myself when starting developing Scribo precedesor 5 years ago. We started with Wiki markup (which is still possible in Scribo) but end users just don't like it. Yes, those end users are secretaries etc, definitively not programmers.
But let we ask ourself about our user base. Who will be authors of content of squeak.org in the future? As you know the plan is to broaden author base so that all subcommunities will maintain its part of website by their own.
When you broaden author base you can soon expect unfamiliarity with Wiki markup syntax, not to mention that anyone really like to know many different syntaxes for many different Wikis (Wikipedia, SmallWiki, WikiWorks etc.).
On the other side anyone is immediately familiar with those buttons in rich text editor. Conclusion is therefore obvious: if we want to succeed with broadening author base, we need to make more familiar content editing. And rich text editor is more familiar, there is not doubt on that.
Best regards Janko _______________________________________________ Webteam mailing list Webteam@lists.squeakfoundation.org http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/webteam
Matthew Fulmer wrote:
I also find it's method of adding new pages extremely un-intuitive, and I also cannot figure out how to add non-document resources to the website, which is as simple as a drop-down box in pier (In the add command, you choose what you want to create. Default choice is a wiki page)
I just compared SmallWiki vs. Scribo page adding:
SmallWiki: *New Page* Scribo: [New Page]
or explicit Urls:
SmallWiki: *New Page>NewPage* Scribo: [New Page>NewPage]
or external Urls:
SmallWiki: *External>http://www.external.org* Scribo: [External>http://www.external.org]
As you can see, actually the same way, and even that can be adjusted in Scribo to be exactly the same.
SmallWiki has a separate Contents page, where you can also add and remove pages. This is missing in Scribo right now, but it will be there soon.
SmallWiki has also an explicit hierarchy (with special pages called Folders) while Scribo intentionally don't have explicit page hierarchy. But you can implicitly set page hierarchy in explicit URl: [Installation>/Documentation/Installation]. It is true that we need to support automatic creation of hierarchical subpages better. I'm just working on that.
About adding other resources: Scribo has a full and really powerful image adding support in rich text editor. It is two step process: first you upload image, second you simply drag that image in the content on the place where you want. It can't be simpler than that.
I'll also soon switch on uploading any attachment to the page, like PDFs etc.
Best regards Janko
webteam@lists.squeakfoundation.org
-
Brad Fuller -
Igor Stasenko -
Janko Mivšek -
Lukas Renggli -
Matthew Fulmer -
nico -
nicolas petton