<div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Tue, Aug 2, 2022 at 10:15 PM Ralph Boland <<a href="mailto:rpboland@gmail.com">rpboland@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">I took a quick look at Nebraska. I seems to allow<br>
multiple users using the same image to have distinct<br>
screens. I only need data for one screen to leave the computer.<br>
This data would then need to be split so the same data can<br>
be sent to as many as 4 screens, one for each user who see<br>
the same thing on their computer screens. Thus output as<br>
far as smalltalk is concerned is single user. What is needed is for input<br>
to be multi-user. (up to 4 mice and perhaps up to 4 keyboards<br>
though the need for multi-user keyboards is much less; something<br>
that can wait until later)<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Nebraska has one "server", which is just a Morphic world. When a client connects to the server, what the client gets afterwards is a sequence of drawing commands from the server (say, fill a rectangle of this size with this color). So the screen shown on the client is basically the same with the server. (so that should fit your requirement). The input events from a client are simply sent to the server and the multiple input support of Morphic in general handles them okay.</div><div><br></div><div>So with 5 or 4 computers, one is designated to be a server and other clients connect to the server, and it should work as you described.</div><div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<br>
Ralph.<br>
<br>
On Tue, 2 Aug 2022 at 17:45,<br>
<<a href="mailto:beginners-request@lists.squeakfoundation.org" target="_blank">beginners-request@lists.squeakfoundation.org</a>> wrote:<br>
><br>
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> 1. Re: Beginners Digest, Vol 174, Issue 1 (Ralph Boland)<br>
> 2. Re: Beginners Digest, Vol 174, Issue 1 (Yoshiki Ohshima)<br>
><br>
><br>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
><br>
> Message: 1<br>
> Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2022 17:05:29 -0600<br>
> From: Ralph Boland <<a href="mailto:rpboland@gmail.com" target="_blank">rpboland@gmail.com</a>><br>
> To: <a href="mailto:beginners@lists.squeakfoundation.org" target="_blank">beginners@lists.squeakfoundation.org</a><br>
> Subject: Re: [Newbies] Beginners Digest, Vol 174, Issue 1<br>
> Message-ID:<br>
> <CAPMV+mzZp5Xr=_<a href="mailto:TX990xiGAWv1nW2garhiO%2BLkVEYMXcazDwDg@mail.gmail.com" target="_blank">TX990xiGAWv1nW2garhiO+LkVEYMXcazDwDg@mail.gmail.com</a>><br>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"<br>
><br>
> Very interesting and doubtless useful but<br>
> overkill for what I need.<br>
><br>
> All I want is for a single image (with a single screen<br>
> though perhaps multiple duplicate screens) to have<br>
> multiple mice and multiple keyboard inputs.<br>
> Some operating system help is likely required for this.<br>
> I am currently using Linux but would eventually be able<br>
> to work on any operating system that Squeak does.<br>
><br>
> I guess this could be used for multiple developers to<br>
> work on the same image at the same time and I guess<br>
> this would be useful. But this is not what I am looking for.<br>
><br>
> I want to develop multi-user games (maximum 4 players)<br>
> playing in real time so I need up to 4 mice and perhaps 4 keyboards.<br>
> These games are for 4-10 year olds who would likely all be in<br>
> the same room ideally on the same computer. So networking<br>
> capability isn't necessary or the ideal way to go.<br>
><br>
> Is anybody doing any work in this direction?<br>
><br>
> Ralph Boland<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> On Tue, 2 Aug 2022 at 15:02,<br>
> <<a href="mailto:beginners-request@lists.squeakfoundation.org" target="_blank">beginners-request@lists.squeakfoundation.org</a>> wrote:<br>
> ><br>
> > Send Beginners mailing list submissions to<br>
> > <a href="mailto:beginners@lists.squeakfoundation.org" target="_blank">beginners@lists.squeakfoundation.org</a><br>
> ><br>
> > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit<br>
> > <a href="http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners</a><br>
> > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to<br>
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> ><br>
> > You can reach the person managing the list at<br>
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> ><br>
> > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific<br>
> > than "Re: Contents of Beginners digest..."<br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> > Today's Topics:<br>
> ><br>
> > 1. Multi user Squeak image via Croquet (Jiri R.)<br>
> > 2. Re: Multi user Squeak image via Croquet (Yoshiki Ohshima)<br>
> > 3. Re: Multi user Squeak image via Croquet (Jecel Assumpcao Jr)<br>
> > 4. Re: Multi user Squeak image via Croquet (Yoshiki Ohshima)<br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
> ><br>
> > Message: 1<br>
> > Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2022 14:30:27 +0200<br>
> > From: "Jiri R." <<a href="mailto:jiriq@icloud.com" target="_blank">jiriq@icloud.com</a>><br>
> > To: Squeak Begginers <<a href="mailto:beginners@lists.squeakfoundation.org" target="_blank">beginners@lists.squeakfoundation.org</a>><br>
> > Subject: [Newbies] Multi user Squeak image via Croquet<br>
> > Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:17C82321-EE23-497E-9E5D-D877ABDB8590@icloud.com" target="_blank">17C82321-EE23-497E-9E5D-D877ABDB8590@icloud.com</a>><br>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"<br>
> ><br>
> > Hi,<br>
> ><br>
> > The is <a href="http://croquet.io" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">croquet.io</a> <<a href="http://croquet.io/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://croquet.io/</a>> which allows "multiple users to work or play together within a single shared distributed environment". I wonder whether it is possible to take a squeak image and make it that single shared distributed environment. So multiple users would have some sort of UI (with system browser, workspaces, ..) and be able to work on a single underlining model (the squeak image).<br>
> ><br>
> > Jiri<br>
> ><br>
> > -------------- next part --------------<br>
> > An HTML attachment was scrubbed...<br>
> > URL: <<a href="http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/pipermail/beginners/attachments/20220802/45b38fba/attachment-0001.html" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/pipermail/beginners/attachments/20220802/45b38fba/attachment-0001.html</a>><br>
> ><br>
> > ------------------------------<br>
> ><br>
> > Message: 2<br>
> > Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2022 10:53:17 -0700<br>
> > From: Yoshiki Ohshima <<a href="mailto:Yoshiki.Ohshima@acm.org" target="_blank">Yoshiki.Ohshima@acm.org</a>><br>
> > To: "A friendly place to get answers to even the most basic questions<br>
> > about Squeak." <<a href="mailto:beginners@lists.squeakfoundation.org" target="_blank">beginners@lists.squeakfoundation.org</a>><br>
> > Subject: Re: [Newbies] Multi user Squeak image via Croquet<br>
> > Message-ID:<br>
> > <<a href="mailto:CAHC3jCOEHF9N6n7Oi14HLTzi5E%2BruHqKbp17v87bD%2BLjDp1nCQ@mail.gmail.com" target="_blank">CAHC3jCOEHF9N6n7Oi14HLTzi5E+ruHqKbp17v87bD+LjDp1nCQ@mail.gmail.com</a>><br>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"<br>
> ><br>
> > Hi<br>
> ><br>
> > (I am working on a few <a href="http://croquet.io" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">croquet.io</a> projects.) Trying to run the current way<br>
> > of how Squeak works and making it "croquetified" has some challenges. One<br>
> > is that a Squeak image typically uses 50MB, 100MB, or more memory, and that<br>
> > means that the "snapshots" that Croquet takes and sends over the network<br>
> > now and then can be quite expensive. (At the same time, as we know, most of<br>
> > the contents in an image is read only; we can imagine to have a different<br>
> > image structure where the read only part is separate and only the new stuff<br>
> > is exchanged.)<br>
> ><br>
> > Another issue is to ensure determinism. There may not be too many issues<br>
> > around it, as the old Squeak based Croquet has shown; but the current<br>
> > Morphic itself probably does not work out of the box in this regard.<br>
> ><br>
> > An alternative approach is to have a different execution engine, or a<br>
> > translator from Smalltalk to JavaScript. I actually gave a talk recently on<br>
> > that idea (and other things):<br>
> ><br>
> > <a href="https://youtu.be/E3og3l5kKes?t=1353" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://youtu.be/E3og3l5kKes?t=1353</a><br>
> ><br>
> > If you enable English subtitles on YouTube, you can get the gist of what I<br>
> > was talking about. The implementation of it is available here:<br>
> ><br>
> > <a href="https://github.com/yoshikiohshima/smallroom" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://github.com/yoshikiohshima/smallroom</a><br>
> ><br>
> > On Tue, Aug 2, 2022 at 5:30 AM Jiri R. <<a href="mailto:jiriq@icloud.com" target="_blank">jiriq@icloud.com</a>> wrote:<br>
> ><br>
> > > Hi,<br>
> > ><br>
> > > The is <a href="http://croquet.io" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">croquet.io</a> which allows "multiple users to work or play together<br>
> > > within a single shared distributed environment". I wonder whether it is<br>
> > > possible to take a squeak image and make it *that* single shared<br>
> > > distributed environment. So multiple users would have some sort of UI (with<br>
> > > system browser, workspaces, ..) and be able to work on a single underlining<br>
> > > model (the squeak image).<br>
> > ><br>
> > > Jiri<br>
> > ><br>
> > > _______________________________________________<br>
> > > Beginners mailing list<br>
> > > <a href="mailto:Beginners@lists.squeakfoundation.org" target="_blank">Beginners@lists.squeakfoundation.org</a><br>
> > > <a href="http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners</a><br>
> > ><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> > --<br>
> > -- Yoshiki<br>
> > -------------- next part --------------<br>
> > An HTML attachment was scrubbed...<br>
> > URL: <<a href="http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/pipermail/beginners/attachments/20220802/9fb59335/attachment-0001.html" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/pipermail/beginners/attachments/20220802/9fb59335/attachment-0001.html</a>><br>
> ><br>
> > ------------------------------<br>
> ><br>
> > Message: 3<br>
> > Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2022 17:13:46 -0300<br>
> > From: "Jecel Assumpcao Jr" <<a href="mailto:jecel@merlintec.com" target="_blank">jecel@merlintec.com</a>><br>
> > To: "A friendly place to get answers to even the most basic questions<br>
> > about Squeak." <<a href="mailto:beginners@lists.squeakfoundation.org" target="_blank">beginners@lists.squeakfoundation.org</a>><br>
> > Subject: Re: [Newbies] Multi user Squeak image via Croquet<br>
> > Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:20220802201350.B33223E0E77@proxy.email-ssl.com.br" target="_blank">20220802201350.B33223E0E77@proxy.email-ssl.com.br</a>><br>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1<br>
> ><br>
> > Yoshiki Ohshima wrote on Tue, 2 Aug 2022 10:53:17 -0700<br>
> > > (I am working on a few <a href="http://croquet.io" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">croquet.io</a> projects.)<br>
> ><br>
> > Great!<br>
> ><br>
> > > Trying to run the current way of how Squeak works and making<br>
> > > it "croquetified" has some challenges. One is that a Squeak image<br>
> > > typically uses 50MB, 100MB, or more memory, and that means<br>
> > > that the "snapshots" that Croquet takes and sends over the network<br>
> > > now and then can be quite expensive.<br>
> ><br>
> > The image for Croquet 0.2 (2005) was 16MB and that had a lot of content<br>
> > like textures and pictures in it, but you have a good point.<br>
> ><br>
> > > (At the same time, as we know, most of the contents in an image is<br>
> > > read only; we can imagine to have a different image structure<br>
> > > where the read only part is separate and only the new stuff is exchanged.)<br>
> ><br>
> > Yes, just like the idea of separating the sources into two files<br>
> > (.sources and .changes) is to avoid having the same things stored over<br>
> > and over on disk or copied over the network.<br>
> ><br>
> > Smalltalk/V had such a separation where the bulk of the image was in<br>
> > read-only .dll files while the small v.exe file only had what you<br>
> > created yourself. So it is certainly possible.<br>
> ><br>
> > > Another issue is to ensure determinism. There may not be too many<br>
> > > issues around it, as the old Squeak based Croquet has shown; but the<br>
> > > current Morphic itself probably does not work out of the box in this regard.<br>
> ><br>
> > I have not tried Croquet in a recent Squeak image, but I am not aware of<br>
> > any problems.<br>
> ><br>
> > > An alternative approach is to have a different execution engine, or a translator<br>
> > > from Smalltalk to JavaScript. I actually gave a talk recently on that idea (and<br>
> > > other things):<br>
> > > <a href="https://youtu.be/E3og3l5kKes?t=1353" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://youtu.be/E3og3l5kKes?t=1353</a><br>
> > ><br>
> > > If you enable English subtitles on YouTube, you can get the gist of what I was<br>
> > > talking about. The implementation of it is available here:<br>
> > > <a href="https://github.com/yoshikiohshima/smallroom" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://github.com/yoshikiohshima/smallroom</a><br>
> ><br>
> > Thanks for the links! I have been watching the videos for the talks from<br>
> > "Camp Smalltalk Supreme" last month in Canada and the idea of<br>
> > "transpiling" Smalltalk to Javascript seems to be very popular.<br>
> ><br>
> > That said, given that there is already one Croquet implementation in<br>
> > Squeak it seems that fixing any problems with that would be a lot less<br>
> > work than dealing with Javascript.<br>
> ><br>
> > > On Tue, Aug 2, 2022 at 5:30 AM Jiri R. wrote:<br>
> > ><br>
> > > Hi,<br>
> > > The is <a href="http://croquet.io" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">croquet.io</a> which allows "multiple users to work or play together within<br>
> > > a single shared distributed environment". I wonder whether it is possible to take<br>
> > > a squeak image and make it that single shared distributed environment. So<br>
> > > multiple users would have some sort of UI (with system browser, workspaces, ..)<br>
> > > and be able to work on a single underlining model (the squeak image).<br>
> ><br>
> > The current <a href="http://croquet.io" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">croquet.io</a> is a new implementation in Javascript of the<br>
> > ideas for the old Croquet project in Squeak from 2003, which was forked<br>
> > as the academic OpenCobalt, the commercial Qwaq/Terf and the current<br>
> > commercial 3DICC.<br>
> ><br>
> > An older project called Nebraska used a different approach to allow<br>
> > people on different computers to work together on Squeak projects. There<br>
> > was another project from Japan similar to Nebraska that was very<br>
> > interesting but I can't remember its name, unfortunately.<br>
> ><br>
> > <a href="http://wiki.squeak.org/squeak/2901" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://wiki.squeak.org/squeak/2901</a><br>
> ><br>
> > <a href="http://www.opencobalt.net/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.opencobalt.net/</a><br>
> ><br>
> > <a href="https://www.3dicc.com/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.3dicc.com/</a><br>
> ><br>
> > <a href="https://wiki.squeak.org/squeak/1356" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://wiki.squeak.org/squeak/1356</a><br>
> ><br>
> > -- Jecel<br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> > ------------------------------<br>
> ><br>
> > Message: 4<br>
> > Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2022 14:02:04 -0700<br>
> > From: Yoshiki Ohshima <<a href="mailto:Yoshiki.Ohshima@acm.org" target="_blank">Yoshiki.Ohshima@acm.org</a>><br>
> > To: "A friendly place to get answers to even the most basic questions<br>
> > about Squeak." <<a href="mailto:beginners@lists.squeakfoundation.org" target="_blank">beginners@lists.squeakfoundation.org</a>><br>
> > Subject: Re: [Newbies] Multi user Squeak image via Croquet<br>
> > Message-ID:<br>
> > <<a href="mailto:CAHC3jCMBbbeQOm%2B5eUzy3qs0ddPa2vU7AX%2BKVMOmX0rNJeP17g@mail.gmail.com" target="_blank">CAHC3jCMBbbeQOm+5eUzy3qs0ddPa2vU7AX+KVMOmX0rNJeP17g@mail.gmail.com</a>><br>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"<br>
> ><br>
> > On Tue, Aug 2, 2022 at 1:14 PM Jecel Assumpcao Jr <<a href="mailto:jecel@merlintec.com" target="_blank">jecel@merlintec.com</a>><br>
> > wrote:<br>
> ><br>
> > > Yoshiki Ohshima wrote on Tue, 2 Aug 2022 10:53:17 -0700<br>
> > > > (I am working on a few <a href="http://croquet.io" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">croquet.io</a> projects.)<br>
> > ><br>
> > > Great!<br>
> > ><br>
> > > > Trying to run the current way of how Squeak works and making<br>
> > > > it "croquetified" has some challenges. One is that a Squeak image<br>
> > > > typically uses 50MB, 100MB, or more memory, and that means<br>
> > > > that the "snapshots" that Croquet takes and sends over the network<br>
> > > > now and then can be quite expensive.<br>
> > ><br>
> > > The image for Croquet 0.2 (2005) was 16MB and that had a lot of content<br>
> > > like textures and pictures in it, but you have a good point.<br>
> > ><br>
> ><br>
> > Well, but an elaborated avatar alone can be bigger than 16MB; so yes, the<br>
> > landscape has changed a bit.<br>
> ><br>
> > ><br>
> > > > (At the same time, as we know, most of the contents in an image is<br>
> > > > read only; we can imagine to have a different image structure<br>
> > > > where the read only part is separate and only the new stuff is<br>
> > > exchanged.)<br>
> > ><br>
> > > Yes, just like the idea of separating the sources into two files<br>
> > > (.sources and .changes) is to avoid having the same things stored over<br>
> > > and over on disk or copied over the network.<br>
> > ><br>
> > > Smalltalk/V had such a separation where the bulk of the image was in<br>
> > > read-only .dll files while the small v.exe file only had what you<br>
> > > created yourself. So it is certainly possible.<br>
> > ><br>
> ><br>
> > And there are many others who would chime in to say that "Oh, I did that a<br>
> > copy on write Smalltalk thingy"^^;<br>
> ><br>
> > ><br>
> > > > Another issue is to ensure determinism. There may not be too many<br>
> > > > issues around it, as the old Squeak based Croquet has shown; but the<br>
> > > > current Morphic itself probably does not work out of the box in this<br>
> > > regard.<br>
> > ><br>
> > > I have not tried Croquet in a recent Squeak image, but I am not aware of<br>
> > > any problems.<br>
> > ><br>
> ><br>
> > Another thing, besides transcendental functions, is that a whileTrue: kind<br>
> > of loop needs to break away at the same logical time, and Cmd-. by one<br>
> > person would break out at the same time, etc.<br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> > > > An alternative approach is to have a different execution engine, or a<br>
> > > translator<br>
> > > > from Smalltalk to JavaScript. I actually gave a talk recently on that<br>
> > > idea (and<br>
> > > > other things):<br>
> > > > <a href="https://youtu.be/E3og3l5kKes?t=1353" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://youtu.be/E3og3l5kKes?t=1353</a><br>
> > > ><br>
> > > > If you enable English subtitles on YouTube, you can get the gist of what<br>
> > > I was<br>
> > > > talking about. The implementation of it is available here:<br>
> > > > <a href="https://github.com/yoshikiohshima/smallroom" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://github.com/yoshikiohshima/smallroom</a><br>
> > ><br>
> > > Thanks for the links! I have been watching the videos for the talks from<br>
> > > "Camp Smalltalk Supreme" last month in Canada and the idea of<br>
> > > "transpiling" Smalltalk to Javascript seems to be very popular.<br>
> > ><br>
> > > That said, given that there is already one Croquet implementation in<br>
> > > Squeak it seems that fixing any problems with that would be a lot less<br>
> > > work than dealing with Javascript.<br>
> > ><br>
> ><br>
> > I am happy to see if somebody tries to do the full Squeak image based<br>
> > environment that can do collaborative development and all that, but<br>
> > looking at the old Croquet architecture without having a real model view<br>
> > separation sounds very hard to me, unfortunately.<br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> > ><br>
> > > > On Tue, Aug 2, 2022 at 5:30 AM Jiri R. wrote:<br>
> > > ><br>
> > > > Hi,<br>
> > > > The is <a href="http://croquet.io" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">croquet.io</a> which allows "multiple users to work or play together<br>
> > > within<br>
> > > > a single shared distributed environment". I wonder whether it is<br>
> > > possible to take<br>
> > > > a squeak image and make it that single shared distributed environment. So<br>
> > > > multiple users would have some sort of UI (with system browser,<br>
> > > workspaces, ..)<br>
> > > > and be able to work on a single underlining model (the squeak image).<br>
> > ><br>
> > > The current <a href="http://croquet.io" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">croquet.io</a> is a new implementation in Javascript of the<br>
> > > ideas for the old Croquet project in Squeak from 2003, which was forked<br>
> > > as the academic OpenCobalt, the commercial Qwaq/Terf and the current<br>
> > > commercial 3DICC.<br>
> > ><br>
> > > An older project called Nebraska used a different approach to allow<br>
> > > people on different computers to work together on Squeak projects. There<br>
> > > was another project from Japan similar to Nebraska that was very<br>
> > > interesting but I can't remember its name, unfortunately.<br>
> > ><br>
> > > <a href="http://wiki.squeak.org/squeak/2901" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://wiki.squeak.org/squeak/2901</a><br>
> > ><br>
> > > <a href="http://www.opencobalt.net/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.opencobalt.net/</a><br>
> > ><br>
> > > <a href="https://www.3dicc.com/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.3dicc.com/</a><br>
> > ><br>
> > > <a href="https://wiki.squeak.org/squeak/1356" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://wiki.squeak.org/squeak/1356</a><br>
> > ><br>
> > > -- Jecel<br>
> > > _______________________________________________<br>
> > > Beginners mailing list<br>
> > > <a href="mailto:Beginners@lists.squeakfoundation.org" target="_blank">Beginners@lists.squeakfoundation.org</a><br>
> > > <a href="http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners</a><br>
> > ><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> > --<br>
> > -- Yoshiki<br>
> > -------------- next part --------------<br>
> > An HTML attachment was scrubbed...<br>
> > URL: <<a href="http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/pipermail/beginners/attachments/20220802/b11e9a11/attachment.html" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/pipermail/beginners/attachments/20220802/b11e9a11/attachment.html</a>><br>
> ><br>
> > ------------------------------<br>
> ><br>
> > Subject: Digest Footer<br>
> ><br>
> > _______________________________________________<br>
> > Beginners mailing list<br>
> > <a href="mailto:Beginners@lists.squeakfoundation.org" target="_blank">Beginners@lists.squeakfoundation.org</a><br>
> > <a href="http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners</a><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> > ------------------------------<br>
> ><br>
> > End of Beginners Digest, Vol 174, Issue 1<br>
> > *****************************************<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> --<br>
> Any artist who remains true to himself becomes a work of art himself,<br>
> because that is one of the most difficult things to do. Lenard Cohen<br>
><br>
><br>
> ------------------------------<br>
><br>
> Message: 2<br>
> Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2022 16:45:36 -0700<br>
> From: Yoshiki Ohshima <<a href="mailto:Yoshiki.Ohshima@acm.org" target="_blank">Yoshiki.Ohshima@acm.org</a>><br>
> To: <a href="mailto:ralphpboland@gmail.com" target="_blank">ralphpboland@gmail.com</a>, "A friendly place to get answers to even<br>
> the most basic questions about Squeak."<br>
> <<a href="mailto:beginners@lists.squeakfoundation.org" target="_blank">beginners@lists.squeakfoundation.org</a>><br>
> Subject: Re: [Newbies] Beginners Digest, Vol 174, Issue 1<br>
> Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:49E6CBC7-1061-433E-9888-BCB7D28D3A3B@acm.org" target="_blank">49E6CBC7-1061-433E-9888-BCB7D28D3A3B@acm.org</a>><br>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8<br>
><br>
> Ah, if that is the case, the Nebraska system would be a good starting point. There are some logistic issues like how to set a server and let others connect, etc. and I don’t know how well it is maintained…. But when I was paying attention to it many years ago, Nebraska did work reasonably well.<br>
><br>
> -- Yoshiki<br>
><br>
> > On Aug 2, 2022, at 4:06 PM, Ralph Boland <<a href="mailto:rpboland@gmail.com" target="_blank">rpboland@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
> ><br>
> > Very interesting and doubtless useful but<br>
> > overkill for what I need.<br>
> ><br>
> > All I want is for a single image (with a single screen<br>
> > though perhaps multiple duplicate screens) to have<br>
> > multiple mice and multiple keyboard inputs.<br>
> > Some operating system help is likely required for this.<br>
> > I am currently using Linux but would eventually be able<br>
> > to work on any operating system that Squeak does.<br>
> ><br>
> > I guess this could be used for multiple developers to<br>
> > work on the same image at the same time and I guess<br>
> > this would be useful. But this is not what I am looking for.<br>
> ><br>
> > I want to develop multi-user games (maximum 4 players)<br>
> > playing in real time so I need up to 4 mice and perhaps 4 keyboards.<br>
> > These games are for 4-10 year olds who would likely all be in<br>
> > the same room ideally on the same computer. So networking<br>
> > capability isn't necessary or the ideal way to go.<br>
> ><br>
> > Is anybody doing any work in this direction?<br>
> ><br>
> > Ralph Boland<br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> >> On Tue, 2 Aug 2022 at 15:02,<br>
> >> <<a href="mailto:beginners-request@lists.squeakfoundation.org" target="_blank">beginners-request@lists.squeakfoundation.org</a>> wrote:<br>
> >><br>
> >> Send Beginners mailing list submissions to<br>
> >> <a href="mailto:beginners@lists.squeakfoundation.org" target="_blank">beginners@lists.squeakfoundation.org</a><br>
> >><br>
> >> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit<br>
> >> <a href="http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners</a><br>
> >> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to<br>
> >> <a href="mailto:beginners-request@lists.squeakfoundation.org" target="_blank">beginners-request@lists.squeakfoundation.org</a><br>
> >><br>
> >> You can reach the person managing the list at<br>
> >> <a href="mailto:beginners-owner@lists.squeakfoundation.org" target="_blank">beginners-owner@lists.squeakfoundation.org</a><br>
> >><br>
> >> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific<br>
> >> than "Re: Contents of Beginners digest..."<br>
> >><br>
> >><br>
> >> Today's Topics:<br>
> >><br>
> >> 1. Multi user Squeak image via Croquet (Jiri R.)<br>
> >> 2. Re: Multi user Squeak image via Croquet (Yoshiki Ohshima)<br>
> >> 3. Re: Multi user Squeak image via Croquet (Jecel Assumpcao Jr)<br>
> >> 4. Re: Multi user Squeak image via Croquet (Yoshiki Ohshima)<br>
> >><br>
> >><br>
> >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
> >><br>
> >> Message: 1<br>
> >> Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2022 14:30:27 +0200<br>
> >> From: "Jiri R." <<a href="mailto:jiriq@icloud.com" target="_blank">jiriq@icloud.com</a>><br>
> >> To: Squeak Begginers <<a href="mailto:beginners@lists.squeakfoundation.org" target="_blank">beginners@lists.squeakfoundation.org</a>><br>
> >> Subject: [Newbies] Multi user Squeak image via Croquet<br>
> >> Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:17C82321-EE23-497E-9E5D-D877ABDB8590@icloud.com" target="_blank">17C82321-EE23-497E-9E5D-D877ABDB8590@icloud.com</a>><br>
> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"<br>
> >><br>
> >> Hi,<br>
> >><br>
> >> The is <a href="http://croquet.io" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">croquet.io</a> <<a href="http://croquet.io/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://croquet.io/</a>> which allows "multiple users to work or play together within a single shared distributed environment". I wonder whether it is possible to take a squeak image and make it that single shared distributed environment. So multiple users would have some sort of UI (with system browser, workspaces, ..) and be able to work on a single underlining model (the squeak image).<br>
> >><br>
> >> Jiri<br>
> >><br>
> >> -------------- next part --------------<br>
> >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...<br>
> >> URL: <<a href="http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/pipermail/beginners/attachments/20220802/45b38fba/attachment-0001.html" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/pipermail/beginners/attachments/20220802/45b38fba/attachment-0001.html</a>><br>
> >><br>
> >> ------------------------------<br>
> >><br>
> >> Message: 2<br>
> >> Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2022 10:53:17 -0700<br>
> >> From: Yoshiki Ohshima <<a href="mailto:Yoshiki.Ohshima@acm.org" target="_blank">Yoshiki.Ohshima@acm.org</a>><br>
> >> To: "A friendly place to get answers to even the most basic questions<br>
> >> about Squeak." <<a href="mailto:beginners@lists.squeakfoundation.org" target="_blank">beginners@lists.squeakfoundation.org</a>><br>
> >> Subject: Re: [Newbies] Multi user Squeak image via Croquet<br>
> >> Message-ID:<br>
> >> <<a href="mailto:CAHC3jCOEHF9N6n7Oi14HLTzi5E%2BruHqKbp17v87bD%2BLjDp1nCQ@mail.gmail.com" target="_blank">CAHC3jCOEHF9N6n7Oi14HLTzi5E+ruHqKbp17v87bD+LjDp1nCQ@mail.gmail.com</a>><br>
> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"<br>
> >><br>
> >> Hi<br>
> >><br>
> >> (I am working on a few <a href="http://croquet.io" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">croquet.io</a> projects.) Trying to run the current way<br>
> >> of how Squeak works and making it "croquetified" has some challenges. One<br>
> >> is that a Squeak image typically uses 50MB, 100MB, or more memory, and that<br>
> >> means that the "snapshots" that Croquet takes and sends over the network<br>
> >> now and then can be quite expensive. (At the same time, as we know, most of<br>
> >> the contents in an image is read only; we can imagine to have a different<br>
> >> image structure where the read only part is separate and only the new stuff<br>
> >> is exchanged.)<br>
> >><br>
> >> Another issue is to ensure determinism. There may not be too many issues<br>
> >> around it, as the old Squeak based Croquet has shown; but the current<br>
> >> Morphic itself probably does not work out of the box in this regard.<br>
> >><br>
> >> An alternative approach is to have a different execution engine, or a<br>
> >> translator from Smalltalk to JavaScript. I actually gave a talk recently on<br>
> >> that idea (and other things):<br>
> >><br>
> >> <a href="https://youtu.be/E3og3l5kKes?t=1353" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://youtu.be/E3og3l5kKes?t=1353</a><br>
> >><br>
> >> If you enable English subtitles on YouTube, you can get the gist of what I<br>
> >> was talking about. The implementation of it is available here:<br>
> >><br>
> >> <a href="https://github.com/yoshikiohshima/smallroom" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://github.com/yoshikiohshima/smallroom</a><br>
> >><br>
> >>> On Tue, Aug 2, 2022 at 5:30 AM Jiri R. <<a href="mailto:jiriq@icloud.com" target="_blank">jiriq@icloud.com</a>> wrote:<br>
> >>><br>
> >>> Hi,<br>
> >>><br>
> >>> The is <a href="http://croquet.io" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">croquet.io</a> which allows "multiple users to work or play together<br>
> >>> within a single shared distributed environment". I wonder whether it is<br>
> >>> possible to take a squeak image and make it *that* single shared<br>
> >>> distributed environment. So multiple users would have some sort of UI (with<br>
> >>> system browser, workspaces, ..) and be able to work on a single underlining<br>
> >>> model (the squeak image).<br>
> >>><br>
> >>> Jiri<br>
> >>><br>
> >>> _______________________________________________<br>
> >>> Beginners mailing list<br>
> >>> <a href="mailto:Beginners@lists.squeakfoundation.org" target="_blank">Beginners@lists.squeakfoundation.org</a><br>
> >>> <a href="http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners</a><br>
> >>><br>
> >><br>
> >><br>
> >> --<br>
> >> -- Yoshiki<br>
> >> -------------- next part --------------<br>
> >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...<br>
> >> URL: <<a href="http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/pipermail/beginners/attachments/20220802/9fb59335/attachment-0001.html" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/pipermail/beginners/attachments/20220802/9fb59335/attachment-0001.html</a>><br>
> >><br>
> >> ------------------------------<br>
> >><br>
> >> Message: 3<br>
> >> Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2022 17:13:46 -0300<br>
> >> From: "Jecel Assumpcao Jr" <<a href="mailto:jecel@merlintec.com" target="_blank">jecel@merlintec.com</a>><br>
> >> To: "A friendly place to get answers to even the most basic questions<br>
> >> about Squeak." <<a href="mailto:beginners@lists.squeakfoundation.org" target="_blank">beginners@lists.squeakfoundation.org</a>><br>
> >> Subject: Re: [Newbies] Multi user Squeak image via Croquet<br>
> >> Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:20220802201350.B33223E0E77@proxy.email-ssl.com.br" target="_blank">20220802201350.B33223E0E77@proxy.email-ssl.com.br</a>><br>
> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1<br>
> >><br>
> >> Yoshiki Ohshima wrote on Tue, 2 Aug 2022 10:53:17 -0700<br>
> >>> (I am working on a few <a href="http://croquet.io" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">croquet.io</a> projects.)<br>
> >><br>
> >> Great!<br>
> >><br>
> >>> Trying to run the current way of how Squeak works and making<br>
> >>> it "croquetified" has some challenges. One is that a Squeak image<br>
> >>> typically uses 50MB, 100MB, or more memory, and that means<br>
> >>> that the "snapshots" that Croquet takes and sends over the network<br>
> >>> now and then can be quite expensive.<br>
> >><br>
> >> The image for Croquet 0.2 (2005) was 16MB and that had a lot of content<br>
> >> like textures and pictures in it, but you have a good point.<br>
> >><br>
> >>> (At the same time, as we know, most of the contents in an image is<br>
> >>> read only; we can imagine to have a different image structure<br>
> >>> where the read only part is separate and only the new stuff is exchanged.)<br>
> >><br>
> >> Yes, just like the idea of separating the sources into two files<br>
> >> (.sources and .changes) is to avoid having the same things stored over<br>
> >> and over on disk or copied over the network.<br>
> >><br>
> >> Smalltalk/V had such a separation where the bulk of the image was in<br>
> >> read-only .dll files while the small v.exe file only had what you<br>
> >> created yourself. So it is certainly possible.<br>
> >><br>
> >>> Another issue is to ensure determinism. There may not be too many<br>
> >>> issues around it, as the old Squeak based Croquet has shown; but the<br>
> >>> current Morphic itself probably does not work out of the box in this regard.<br>
> >><br>
> >> I have not tried Croquet in a recent Squeak image, but I am not aware of<br>
> >> any problems.<br>
> >><br>
> >>> An alternative approach is to have a different execution engine, or a translator<br>
> >>> from Smalltalk to JavaScript. I actually gave a talk recently on that idea (and<br>
> >>> other things):<br>
> >>> <a href="https://youtu.be/E3og3l5kKes?t=1353" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://youtu.be/E3og3l5kKes?t=1353</a><br>
> >>><br>
> >>> If you enable English subtitles on YouTube, you can get the gist of what I was<br>
> >>> talking about. The implementation of it is available here:<br>
> >>> <a href="https://github.com/yoshikiohshima/smallroom" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://github.com/yoshikiohshima/smallroom</a><br>
> >><br>
> >> Thanks for the links! I have been watching the videos for the talks from<br>
> >> "Camp Smalltalk Supreme" last month in Canada and the idea of<br>
> >> "transpiling" Smalltalk to Javascript seems to be very popular.<br>
> >><br>
> >> That said, given that there is already one Croquet implementation in<br>
> >> Squeak it seems that fixing any problems with that would be a lot less<br>
> >> work than dealing with Javascript.<br>
> >><br>
> >>>> On Tue, Aug 2, 2022 at 5:30 AM Jiri R. wrote:<br>
> >>><br>
> >>> Hi,<br>
> >>> The is <a href="http://croquet.io" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">croquet.io</a> which allows "multiple users to work or play together within<br>
> >>> a single shared distributed environment". I wonder whether it is possible to take<br>
> >>> a squeak image and make it that single shared distributed environment. So<br>
> >>> multiple users would have some sort of UI (with system browser, workspaces, ..)<br>
> >>> and be able to work on a single underlining model (the squeak image).<br>
> >><br>
> >> The current <a href="http://croquet.io" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">croquet.io</a> is a new implementation in Javascript of the<br>
> >> ideas for the old Croquet project in Squeak from 2003, which was forked<br>
> >> as the academic OpenCobalt, the commercial Qwaq/Terf and the current<br>
> >> commercial 3DICC.<br>
> >><br>
> >> An older project called Nebraska used a different approach to allow<br>
> >> people on different computers to work together on Squeak projects. There<br>
> >> was another project from Japan similar to Nebraska that was very<br>
> >> interesting but I can't remember its name, unfortunately.<br>
> >><br>
> >> <a href="http://wiki.squeak.org/squeak/2901" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://wiki.squeak.org/squeak/2901</a><br>
> >><br>
> >> <a href="http://www.opencobalt.net/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.opencobalt.net/</a><br>
> >><br>
> >> <a href="https://www.3dicc.com/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.3dicc.com/</a><br>
> >><br>
> >> <a href="https://wiki.squeak.org/squeak/1356" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://wiki.squeak.org/squeak/1356</a><br>
> >><br>
> >> -- Jecel<br>
> >><br>
> >><br>
> >> ------------------------------<br>
> >><br>
> >> Message: 4<br>
> >> Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2022 14:02:04 -0700<br>
> >> From: Yoshiki Ohshima <<a href="mailto:Yoshiki.Ohshima@acm.org" target="_blank">Yoshiki.Ohshima@acm.org</a>><br>
> >> To: "A friendly place to get answers to even the most basic questions<br>
> >> about Squeak." <<a href="mailto:beginners@lists.squeakfoundation.org" target="_blank">beginners@lists.squeakfoundation.org</a>><br>
> >> Subject: Re: [Newbies] Multi user Squeak image via Croquet<br>
> >> Message-ID:<br>
> >> <<a href="mailto:CAHC3jCMBbbeQOm%2B5eUzy3qs0ddPa2vU7AX%2BKVMOmX0rNJeP17g@mail.gmail.com" target="_blank">CAHC3jCMBbbeQOm+5eUzy3qs0ddPa2vU7AX+KVMOmX0rNJeP17g@mail.gmail.com</a>><br>
> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"<br>
> >><br>
> >> On Tue, Aug 2, 2022 at 1:14 PM Jecel Assumpcao Jr <<a href="mailto:jecel@merlintec.com" target="_blank">jecel@merlintec.com</a>><br>
> >> wrote:<br>
> >><br>
> >>> Yoshiki Ohshima wrote on Tue, 2 Aug 2022 10:53:17 -0700<br>
> >>>> (I am working on a few <a href="http://croquet.io" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">croquet.io</a> projects.)<br>
> >>><br>
> >>> Great!<br>
> >>><br>
> >>>> Trying to run the current way of how Squeak works and making<br>
> >>>> it "croquetified" has some challenges. One is that a Squeak image<br>
> >>>> typically uses 50MB, 100MB, or more memory, and that means<br>
> >>>> that the "snapshots" that Croquet takes and sends over the network<br>
> >>>> now and then can be quite expensive.<br>
> >>><br>
> >>> The image for Croquet 0.2 (2005) was 16MB and that had a lot of content<br>
> >>> like textures and pictures in it, but you have a good point.<br>
> >>><br>
> >><br>
> >> Well, but an elaborated avatar alone can be bigger than 16MB; so yes, the<br>
> >> landscape has changed a bit.<br>
> >><br>
> >>><br>
> >>>> (At the same time, as we know, most of the contents in an image is<br>
> >>>> read only; we can imagine to have a different image structure<br>
> >>>> where the read only part is separate and only the new stuff is<br>
> >>> exchanged.)<br>
> >>><br>
> >>> Yes, just like the idea of separating the sources into two files<br>
> >>> (.sources and .changes) is to avoid having the same things stored over<br>
> >>> and over on disk or copied over the network.<br>
> >>><br>
> >>> Smalltalk/V had such a separation where the bulk of the image was in<br>
> >>> read-only .dll files while the small v.exe file only had what you<br>
> >>> created yourself. So it is certainly possible.<br>
> >>><br>
> >><br>
> >> And there are many others who would chime in to say that "Oh, I did that a<br>
> >> copy on write Smalltalk thingy"^^;<br>
> >><br>
> >>><br>
> >>>> Another issue is to ensure determinism. There may not be too many<br>
> >>>> issues around it, as the old Squeak based Croquet has shown; but the<br>
> >>>> current Morphic itself probably does not work out of the box in this<br>
> >>> regard.<br>
> >>><br>
> >>> I have not tried Croquet in a recent Squeak image, but I am not aware of<br>
> >>> any problems.<br>
> >>><br>
> >><br>
> >> Another thing, besides transcendental functions, is that a whileTrue: kind<br>
> >> of loop needs to break away at the same logical time, and Cmd-. by one<br>
> >> person would break out at the same time, etc.<br>
> >><br>
> >><br>
> >>>> An alternative approach is to have a different execution engine, or a<br>
> >>> translator<br>
> >>>> from Smalltalk to JavaScript. I actually gave a talk recently on that<br>
> >>> idea (and<br>
> >>>> other things):<br>
> >>>> <a href="https://youtu.be/E3og3l5kKes?t=1353" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://youtu.be/E3og3l5kKes?t=1353</a><br>
> >>>><br>
> >>>> If you enable English subtitles on YouTube, you can get the gist of what<br>
> >>> I was<br>
> >>>> talking about. The implementation of it is available here:<br>
> >>>> <a href="https://github.com/yoshikiohshima/smallroom" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://github.com/yoshikiohshima/smallroom</a><br>
> >>><br>
> >>> Thanks for the links! I have been watching the videos for the talks from<br>
> >>> "Camp Smalltalk Supreme" last month in Canada and the idea of<br>
> >>> "transpiling" Smalltalk to Javascript seems to be very popular.<br>
> >>><br>
> >>> That said, given that there is already one Croquet implementation in<br>
> >>> Squeak it seems that fixing any problems with that would be a lot less<br>
> >>> work than dealing with Javascript.<br>
> >>><br>
> >><br>
> >> I am happy to see if somebody tries to do the full Squeak image based<br>
> >> environment that can do collaborative development and all that, but<br>
> >> looking at the old Croquet architecture without having a real model view<br>
> >> separation sounds very hard to me, unfortunately.<br>
> >><br>
> >><br>
> >>><br>
> >>>> On Tue, Aug 2, 2022 at 5:30 AM Jiri R. wrote:<br>
> >>>><br>
> >>>> Hi,<br>
> >>>> The is <a href="http://croquet.io" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">croquet.io</a> which allows "multiple users to work or play together<br>
> >>> within<br>
> >>>> a single shared distributed environment". I wonder whether it is<br>
> >>> possible to take<br>
> >>>> a squeak image and make it that single shared distributed environment. So<br>
> >>>> multiple users would have some sort of UI (with system browser,<br>
> >>> workspaces, ..)<br>
> >>>> and be able to work on a single underlining model (the squeak image).<br>
> >>><br>
> >>> The current <a href="http://croquet.io" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">croquet.io</a> is a new implementation in Javascript of the<br>
> >>> ideas for the old Croquet project in Squeak from 2003, which was forked<br>
> >>> as the academic OpenCobalt, the commercial Qwaq/Terf and the current<br>
> >>> commercial 3DICC.<br>
> >>><br>
> >>> An older project called Nebraska used a different approach to allow<br>
> >>> people on different computers to work together on Squeak projects. There<br>
> >>> was another project from Japan similar to Nebraska that was very<br>
> >>> interesting but I can't remember its name, unfortunately.<br>
> >>><br>
> >>> <a href="http://wiki.squeak.org/squeak/2901" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://wiki.squeak.org/squeak/2901</a><br>
> >>><br>
> >>> <a href="http://www.opencobalt.net/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.opencobalt.net/</a><br>
> >>><br>
> >>> <a href="https://www.3dicc.com/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.3dicc.com/</a><br>
> >>><br>
> >>> <a href="https://wiki.squeak.org/squeak/1356" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://wiki.squeak.org/squeak/1356</a><br>
> >>><br>
> >>> -- Jecel<br>
> >>> _______________________________________________<br>
> >>> Beginners mailing list<br>
> >>> <a href="mailto:Beginners@lists.squeakfoundation.org" target="_blank">Beginners@lists.squeakfoundation.org</a><br>
> >>> <a href="http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners</a><br>
> >>><br>
> >><br>
> >><br>
> >> --<br>
> >> -- Yoshiki<br>
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> >> End of Beginners Digest, Vol 174, Issue 1<br>
> >> *****************************************<br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> > --<br>
> > Any artist who remains true to himself becomes a work of art himself,<br>
> > because that is one of the most difficult things to do. Lenard Cohen<br>
> > _______________________________________________<br>
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><br>
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><br>
> End of Beginners Digest, Vol 174, Issue 2<br>
> *****************************************<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
-- <br>
Any artist who remains true to himself becomes a work of art himself,<br>
because that is one of the most difficult things to do. Lenard Cohen<br>
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</blockquote></div><br clear="all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature">-- Yoshiki<div><br></div></div></div>