[etoys-dev] SQ-747 Can't Play mpg from Avigail's Gravity Project
Steve Thomas
sthomas1 at gosargon.com
Tue Aug 10 17:50:41 EDT 2010
I created an issue in Tracker for this problem:
http://tracker.squeakland.org/browse/SQ-747
<http://tracker.squeakland.org/browse/SQ-747>I created a separate issues
for:
- Etoys only supports one video format (MPEG) and a very old format and
hard to find conversion programs
SQ-748<http://tracker.squeakland.org/browse/SQ-748>
There is already an issue for:
- Camera does not work on all platforms
SQ-615<http://tracker.squeakland.org/browse/SQ-615>
Stephen
On Tue, Aug 10, 2010 at 4:38 PM, Avigail Snir <avigail at snir.org> wrote:
> Hi All,
>
> I would like to add my voice to the ones who oppose adding a book and a
> flap to the opening project as a default. This will point to a certain use
> of this tool as primary and will make other ways secondary. We can talk
> about means to look at the process as a product: when, how, why... not that
> I have easy answers, just strong feelings and some experiments. I don't see
> a flap or a book as the answer.
>
> I do think that we need to have an easy way to get a flap and the sooner
> the better.
>
>
>
> There is one more issue I would like to raise.
>
> We just put the gravity project I presented at Squeak Fest on our Illinois
> website. The user has to get 2 separate files (the Etoys project and the
> video), store the one of the video in the Etoys projects folder and then
> open it from the Etoys project. We did it by putting a note with a URL of
> the video on the opening screen of the Etoys project. It is not an elegant
> solution. Is there a way to embed the video in the project itself? I have no
> idea how to put this project on the Squeakland website without sending the
> user to EtoysIllinois website for the video.
>
> This adds another layer to the difficulties the video player has by
> accepting only the old MPEG format, and not any of its current versions like
> MPEG2, 3, or 4.
>
>
>
> Avigail
>
>
>
> *From:* etoys-education-team at googlegroups.com [mailto:
> etoys-education-team at googlegroups.com] *On Behalf Of *Steve Thomas
> *Sent:* Monday, August 09, 2010 3:33 PM
> *To:* kharness at illinois.edu
> *Cc:* Rita Freudenberg; etoys-dev dev;
> etoys-education-team at googlegroups.com; Walter Bender
>
> *Subject:* Re: [etoys-dev] Persistent preferences
>
>
>
> The questions I understood Walter to raise are how do we: (I have included
> him in this email so he can comment).
>
> - encourage children to get into the habit of taking notes and
> reflection
> - encourage children to store versions of their work for later review
> and reflection
>
> My initial thoughts were simply to allow an individual user to specify
> the initial project state. This could be accomplished by having a project
> that is in that state that they use as a basis for projects. In my case I am
> starting to do all projects in a book with flaps.
>
>
>
> I was not suggesting we change what happens by default when you "start a
> new project". I was considering whether we should allow individual users
> could change the default state of their starting projects.
>
>
>
> One thing I believe we should do and can hopefully all agree upon is
> putting a flap in the Supplies Bin as now they are too hard to discover and
> most people don't easily or quickly figure out how to copy the flap from the
> home page to a new project.
>
>
>
> The other point I was thinking about was how we deal with re-usable
> artifacts which I would prefer to deal with in a separate email thread and
> after I have thought harder about the problem. (I still remember your
> questions Kathleen, they are good ones, and I am still thinking about them).
>
>
>
> Stephen
>
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Aug 9, 2010 at 1:20 PM, <kharness at illinois.edu> wrote:
>
> Rita,
> Sure I can compromise, I was just giving an opinion not an edict.
>
> Contrary to Kathleen's approach, everything I say is an edict (which only
> applies to me ;)
>
>
>
> Some things to consider if a flap is added:
> What label will be the default? What location, what color?
> Also, a flap that an author decides not to fill will need to be deleted, so
> make that simple to do. An empty flap may lead the person using the project,
> not the author, to wonder if something is missing or broken.
>
> Here are some concerns about a book on the opening screen.
> Books are conveniently available in Supplies but using them is not
> conveniently straightforward for beginners. I am thinking of my young
> students who click on a book, then click on a page turn arrow and nothing
> happens. The far left arrow that opens more controls is not the first thing
> they usually try and then the burst of new icons takes a while to
> understand. I have watched children delete pages thinking they were turning
> back; the same for the plus which adds new pages but which young children
> think will move them from page to page.
>
> Books also require working with layers and that too is not intuitive. We
> know the halos are labeled but beginning readers don't always see the label
> nor if they do, read it for meaning. Putting objects on the page of a book
> using the black halo handle is required and yet many children close the
> paints and see their drawing above a page and then are dismayed when they
> turn the page and the drawing appears to be on it too. Of course, all of
> this can be learned but for beginners, and we have so many of those, is this
> the first thing we want them to confront?
>
> I used all three of the other OOPLs and I think they each have strengths
> and features than compliment learning from the others. It has been a great
> joy to me to find the knowledge I have gained from Etoys has made it easy to
> learn the others. And where they differ is not a problem either because I
> have a scaffolding of knowledge from Etoys that lets me say, hmm that is how
> it is different.
>
> Colors, strong colors do influence us just think of all the ads in print
> and TV; calming colors for hospitals and jails, the orange in McDonalds was
> chosen to encourage people to move on, red white blue national identities,
> camouflage military, etc. A strong colorful interface makes pastel colors
> look weak and yet if a project is best expressed with pastels the author
> must ignore the contrast with the interface and count on the visitor to do
> the same.
> Regards,
> Kathleen
>
>
>
>
> ---- Original message ----
> >Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2010 15:42:37 +0200
> >From: Rita Freudenberg <rita at isg.cs.uni-magdeburg.de>
> >Subject: Re: [etoys-dev] Persistent preferences
>
> >To: <kharness at illinois.edu>
> >Cc: etoys-dev dev <etoys-dev at squeakland.org>,
> etoys-education-team at googlegroups.com
> >
> >
> >On Aug 9, 2010, at 3:00 PM, <kharness at illinois.edu> wrote:
> >
> >> Hi,
> >> I think the real estate of the blank screen is a valuable feature of
> Etoys and adding an extra flap and book to the opening page sort of demands
> that authors decide to use them or to discard them. I'd prefer that we not
> try to manage their thinking that much.
> >>
> >> If you give lined paper to people, they follow the lines and thinking is
> linear and text based. If you give them graph paper you send them in another
> direction and if you give them a blank slate you give them the option to do
> . . . anything.
> >
> >Kathleen, I agree. I think Etoys should stay as open as possible. But
> maybe we could find a compromise here? At Squeakfest, Walter embraced the
> habit of students taking notes and reflecting on their work during the
> process of creation. So maybe having a flap as a temporary place for notes,
> painted objects, scripts, etc. would be valuable?
> >It just happens that I did put a flap in my own project to outline my
> plans instead of opening a word document writing it down.
> >>
> >> Making template projects for your uses of Etoys is a good one. I would
> not want to start every project by having to delete a flap and book. Since
> it is so easy to move objects from one project to another I do not
> understand what benefit to authors, who we will never meet, is gained by
> loading the Supplies Bin and Object Catalog with objects. The clip art in
> Alice, Scratch and StarLogo TNG is one of the features I like the least; the
> images limit imagination, creativity, and originality.
> >>
> >> A different topic but I will add it here. I also like the lack of strong
> colors in the Etoys interface; it is a functional and neutral place to work.
> >
> >Interesting, since Scratch has rather strong colors, and I assume that
> they did some testing of the user interface. Do I understand you correct
> that you prefer the Etoys colors because they do not distract the kids from
> their creative process?
> >
> >Greetings,
> >Rita
> >
> >> Regards,
> >> Kathleen
> >>
> >> ---- Original message ----
> >>> Date: Sun, 8 Aug 2010 23:53:29 -0400
> >>> From: Steve Thomas <sthomas1 at gosargon.com>
> >>> Subject: Re: [etoys-dev] Persistent preferences
> >>> To: etoys-dev at squeakland.org
> >>>
> >>> Does this change apply only to preferences?
> >>> Or does it cover the things Scott Wallace mentioned
> >>> in tracker:
> >>>
> >>> More things than just preference values might also
> >>> be stored in such a file, e.g. default screen
> >>> background color/picture, maybe even presence of
> >>> some "standard morphs" to be inserted into new
> >>> projects, etc
> >>>
> >>> The ability to have "standard morphs" (either in the
> >>> Object Catalog, or Supplies Bin) would be useful.
> >>> Also after Squeakfest and thinking about Walter
> >>> Benders comments on flaps and books, the ability to
> >>> start all new projects with a book and default flap
> >>> would be nice as well. Of course I could
> >>> accomplish this with a few extra mouse clicks by
> >>> simply making a "starter project" that has these
> >>> objects and then modify and rename that project.
> >>> Stephen
> >>> On Sun, Aug 8, 2010 at 12:58 PM, Bert Freudenberg
> >>> <bert at freudenbergs.de> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Hi folks,
> >>>
> >>> I uploaded a proposed implementation to the inbox.
> >>> This allows you a user to change certain
> >>> preferences automatically on startup. The feature
> >>> has been requested quite often, e.g. you could
> >>> turn on unlimitedPaintArea permanently, or
> >>> debugHaloHandle, etc.
> >>>
> >>> We are in feature freeze, but OTH we still have no
> >>> alpha version yet. I think it's relatively low
> >>> risk. Please comment.
> >>>
> >>> - Bert -
> >>>
> >>> On 08.08.2010, at 16:46, commits at source.squeak.org
> >>> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Bert Freudenberg uploaded a new version of
> >>> System to project Etoys Inbox:
> >>>>
> >>> http://source.squeak.org/etoysinbox/System-bf.26.mcz
> >>>>
> >>>> ==================== Summary
> >>> ====================
> >>>>
> >>>> Name: System-bf.26
> >>>> Author: bf
> >>>> Time: 8 August 2010, 6:46:40 pm
> >>>> UUID: 49a53b17-2294-4f3a-9fe1-f4051afce791
> >>>> Ancestors: System-bf.25
> >>>>
> >>>> - allow to persist preferences (SQ-134)
> >>>> - store value using menu in preferences tool
> >>>> - restore on startup
> >>>>
> >>>> =============== Diff against System-bf.25
> >>> ===============
> >>>>
> >>>> Item was added:
> >>>> + ----- Method: Preferences
> >>> class>>persistedValueFor: (in category
> >>> 'persistence') -----
> >>>> + persistedValueFor: aSymbol
> >>>> + ^self persistedValueFor: aSymbol in:
> >>> ExternalSettings preferenceDirectory!
> >>>>
> >>>> Item was added:
> >>>> + ----- Method: Preferences
> >>> class>>persistedFileNameFor: (in category
> >>> 'persistence') -----
> >>>> + persistedFileNameFor: aSymbol
> >>>> + ^aSymbol, self
> >>> persistedFileNameExtension!
> >>>>
> >>>> Item was added:
> >>>> + ----- Method: Preferences
> >>> class>>fetchExternalSettingsIn: (in category
> >>> 'persistence') -----
> >>>> + fetchExternalSettingsIn: aDirectory
> >>>> + "Load persisted preferences"
> >>>> + "Preferences fetchExternalSettingsIn:
> >>> ExternalSettings preferenceDirectory"
> >>>> +
> >>>> + ^ (aDirectory fileNamesMatching: '*',
> >>> self persistedFileNameExtension)
> >>>> + do: [:fileName |
> >>>> + |
> >>> pref value |
> >>>> + pref
> >>> := fileName allButLast: self
> >>> persistedFileNameExtension size.
> >>>> +
> >>> value := self persistedValueFor: pref in:
> >>> aDirectory.
> >>>> +
> >>> (value isKindOf: Boolean) ifTrue:
> >>>> +
> >>> [self enableOrDisable: pref asSymbol
> >>> asPer: value]]!
> >>>>
> >>>> Item was added:
> >>>> + ----- Method:
> >>> Preference>>isNotSetOnStartupString (in category
> >>> 'persistence') -----
> >>>> + isNotSetOnStartupString
> >>>> + "Answer a string representing whether
> >>> this preference is not persisted"
> >>>> +
> >>>> + | aStr |
> >>>> + aStr := 'do not set preference on
> >>> startup' translated.
> >>>> + ^ self persistedValue == nil
> >>>> + ifTrue: ['<yes>', aStr]
> >>>> + ifFalse: ['<no>',
> >>> aStr]!
> >>>>
> >>>> Item was changed:
> >>>> ----- Method: ExternalSettings
> >>> class>>preferenceDirectory (in category
> >>> 'accessing') -----
> >>>> preferenceDirectory
> >>>> + | prefDirName imgPath vmPath secDir |
> >>>> - | prefDirName imgPath vmPath |
> >>>> prefDirName := self
> >>> preferenceDirectoryName.
> >>>> + Preferences startInUntrustedDirectory
> >>>> + ifTrue: [
> >>>> + secDir :=
> >>> (FileDirectory on: SecurityManager default
> >>> secureUserDirectory)
> >>>> +
> >>> directoryNamed: prefDirName.
> >>>> + ^secDir exists
> >>> ifTrue: [secDir]].
> >>>> imgPath := SmalltalkImage current
> >>> imagePath. "might be different from default!!"
> >>>> vmPath := SmalltalkImage current
> >>> vmPath.
> >>>> ^((FileDirectory on: imgPath)
> >>> directoryExists: prefDirName)
> >>>> ifTrue: [(FileDirectory on:
> >>> imgPath) directoryNamed: prefDirName]
> >>>> ifFalse: [
> >>>> ((FileDirectory
> >>> on: vmPath) directoryExists: prefDirName)
> >>>>
> >>> ifTrue: [(FileDirectory on: vmPath)
> >>> directoryNamed: prefDirName]
> >>>>
> >>> ifFalse: [nil]]
> >>>> !
> >>>>
> >>>> Item was added:
> >>>> + ----- Method: Preferences
> >>> class>>persistedFileNameExtension (in category
> >>> 'persistence') -----
> >>>> + persistedFileNameExtension
> >>>> + ^'.pref'!
> >>>>
> >>>> Item was added:
> >>>> + ----- Method: Preferences
> >>> class>>persistValue:for: (in category
> >>> 'persistence') -----
> >>>> + persistValue: aBooleanOrNil for: aSymbol
> >>>> + "Save the preference aSymbol on file, so
> >>> it can be restored to the given value on startup.
> >>> If nil, delete persistent value."
> >>>> +
> >>>> + | fileName file |
> >>>> + fileName := self persistedFileNameFor:
> >>> aSymbol.
> >>>> + aBooleanOrNil ifNil: [
> >>>> + ^ExternalSettings
> >>> preferenceDirectory ifNotNilDo: [:fd |
> >>>> + fd
> >>> deleteFileNamed: fileName ifAbsent: []]].
> >>>> + file := ExternalSettings
> >>> assuredPreferenceDirectory
> >>>> + forceNewFileNamed: fileName.
> >>>> + [file
> >>>> + wantsLineEndConversion:
> >>> true;
> >>>> + nextPutAll: 'value: ';
> >>> print: aBooleanOrNil; cr.
> >>>> + ] ensure: [file close]!
> >>>>
> >>>> Item was added:
> >>>> + ----- Method: Preferences
> >>> class>>persistedValueFor:in: (in category
> >>> 'persistence') -----
> >>>> + persistedValueFor: aSymbol in: aDirectory
> >>>> + "Read the value of preference aSymbol
> >>> from file. Answer nil if not found."
> >>>> +
> >>>> + | tokens value f |
> >>>> + aDirectory ifNil: [^nil].
> >>>> + f := (aDirectory oldFileOrNoneNamed:
> >>> (self persistedFileNameFor: aSymbol)) ifNil:
> >>> [^nil].
> >>>> + [
> >>>> + f wantsLineEndConversion:
> >>> true.
> >>>> + f contentsOfEntireFile
> >>> linesDo: [:line |
> >>>> + tokens := line
> >>> findTokens: ' :' keep: ':'.
> >>>> + (tokens size = 3
> >>> and: [tokens second = ':']) ifTrue: [
> >>>> +
> >>> tokens first caseOf: {
> >>>> +
> >>> ['value'] -> [tokens third caseOf: {
> >>>> +
> >>> ['true'] -> [value := true].
> >>>> +
> >>> ['false'] -> [value :=
> >>> false].
> >>>> +
> >>> } otherwise: []].
> >>>> + }
> >>> otherwise: []]].
> >>>> + ] ensure: [f close].
> >>>> + ^value!
> >>>>
> >>>> Item was changed:
> >>>> ----- Method: Preferences class>>initialize
> >>> (in category 'class initialization') -----
> >>>> initialize
> >>>>
> >>>> + ExternalSettings registerClient: self.
> >>>> + self registerInFlapsRegistry.
> >>>> + !
> >>>> - self registerInFlapsRegistry. !
> >>>>
> >>>> Item was changed:
> >>>> ----- Method: ExternalSettings
> >>> class>>assuredPreferenceDirectory (in category
> >>> 'accessing') -----
> >>>> assuredPreferenceDirectory
> >>>> "Answer the preference directory,
> >>> creating it if necessary"
> >>>>
> >>>> + | prefDir topDir |
> >>>> + prefDir := self preferenceDirectory.
> >>>> - | prefDir |
> >>>> - prefDir _ self preferenceDirectory.
> >>>> prefDir
> >>>> ifNil:
> >>>> + [topDir :=
> >>> Preferences startInUntrustedDirectory
> >>>> +
> >>> ifTrue: [FileDirectory on: SecurityManager default
> >>> secureUserDirectory]
> >>>> +
> >>> ifFalse: [FileDirectory default].
> >>>> + prefDir :=
> >>> topDir directoryNamed: self
> >>> preferenceDirectoryName.
> >>>> - [prefDir _
> >>> FileDirectory default directoryNamed: self
> >>> preferenceDirectoryName.
> >>>> prefDir
> >>> assureExistence].
> >>>> ^ prefDir!
> >>>>
> >>>> Item was added:
> >>>> + ----- Method:
> >>> Preference>>isDisabledOnStartupString (in category
> >>> 'persistence') -----
> >>>> + isDisabledOnStartupString
> >>>> + "Answer a string representing whether
> >>> this preference is persisted to false"
> >>>> +
> >>>> + | aStr |
> >>>> + aStr := 'disable preference on
> >>> startup' translated.
> >>>> + ^ self persistedValue == false
> >>>> + ifTrue: ['<yes>', aStr]
> >>>> + ifFalse: ['<no>',
> >>> aStr]!
> >>>>
> >>>> Item was added:
> >>>> + ----- Method:
> >>> Preference>>isEnabledOnStartupString (in category
> >>> 'persistence') -----
> >>>> + isEnabledOnStartupString
> >>>> + "Answer a string representing whether
> >>> this preference is persisted to true"
> >>>> +
> >>>> + | aStr |
> >>>> + aStr := 'enable preference on startup'
> >>> translated.
> >>>> + ^ self persistedValue == true
> >>>> + ifTrue: ['<yes>', aStr]
> >>>> + ifFalse: ['<no>',
> >>> aStr]!
> >>>>
> >>>> Item was changed:
> >>>> ----- Method:
> >>> BooleanPreferenceView>>offerPreferenceNameMenu:with:in:
> >>> (in category 'user interface') -----
> >>>> offerPreferenceNameMenu: aPanel with: ignored1
> >>> in: ignored2
> >>>> "the user clicked on a preference name
> >>> -- put up a menu"
> >>>>
> >>>> | aMenu |
> >>>> ActiveHand showTemporaryCursor: nil.
> >>>> aMenu := MenuMorph new defaultTarget:
> >>> self preference.
> >>>> aMenu addTitle: self preference name.
> >>>>
> >>>> (Preferences
> >>> okayToChangeProjectLocalnessOf: self preference
> >>> name) ifTrue:
> >>>> [aMenu addUpdating:
> >>> #isProjectLocalString target: self preference
> >>> action: #toggleProjectLocalness.
> >>>> aMenu
> >>> balloonTextForLastItem: 'Some preferences are best
> >>> applied uniformly to all projects, and others are
> >>> best set by each individual project. If this
> >>> item is checked, then this preference will be
> >>> printed in bold and will have a separate value for
> >>> each project' translated].
> >>>>
> >>>> aMenu add: 'browse senders' translated
> >>> target: self systemNavigation selector:
> >>> #browseAllCallsOn: argument: self preference name.
> >>>> aMenu balloonTextForLastItem: 'This
> >>> will open a method-list browser on all methods
> >>> that the send the preference "' translated, self
> >>> preference name, '".'.
> >>>> aMenu add: 'show category...'
> >>> translated target: aPanel selector:
> >>> #findCategoryFromPreference: argument: self
> >>> preference name.
> >>>> aMenu balloonTextForLastItem: 'Allows
> >>> you to find out which category, or categories,
> >>> this preference belongs to.' translated.
> >>>>
> >>>> Smalltalk isMorphic ifTrue:
> >>>> [aMenu add: 'hand me a
> >>> button for this preference' translated target:
> >>> self selector: #tearOffButton.
> >>>> aMenu
> >>> balloonTextForLastItem: 'Will give you a button
> >>> that governs this preference, which you may
> >>> deposit wherever you wish' translated].
> >>>>
> >>>> aMenu add: 'copy this name to
> >>> clipboard' translated target: self preference
> >>> selector: #copyName.
> >>>> aMenu balloonTextForLastItem: 'Copy the
> >>> name of the preference to the text clipboard, so
> >>> that you can paste into code somewhere'
> >>> translated.
> >>>> + aMenu add: 'set automatically on
> >>> startup...' translated target: self selector:
> >>> #offerPersistenceMenu.
> >>>> + aMenu balloonTextForLastItem: 'Store a
> >>> value for this preference on file. On startup, it
> >>> will be automatically restored.' translated.
> >>>>
> >>>> aMenu popUpInWorld!
> >>>>
> >>>> Item was added:
> >>>> + ----- Method:
> >>> BooleanPreferenceView>>offerPersistenceMenu (in
> >>> category 'user interface') -----
> >>>> + offerPersistenceMenu
> >>>> + | aMenu |
> >>>> + Preferences
> >>> persistedPreferencesAccessible
> >>>> + ifFalse: [^self inform:
> >>> ('{1} is in secure mode.
> >>>> + You cannot access the persistent preferences
> >>> now.
> >>>> + To change them, start {1} without loading a
> >>> project.' translated
> >>>> + format: {SystemVersion current baseName
> >>> capitalized})].
> >>>> +
> >>>> + aMenu := MenuMorph new defaultTarget:
> >>> self preference.
> >>>> + aMenu addTitle: self preference name.
> >>>> + aMenu addUpdating:
> >>> #isEnabledOnStartupString target: self preference
> >>> selector: #persistValue: argumentList: {true}.
> >>>> + aMenu addUpdating:
> >>> #isDisabledOnStartupString target: self preference
> >>> selector: #persistValue: argumentList: {false}.
> >>>> + aMenu addUpdating:
> >>> #isNotSetOnStartupString target: self preference
> >>> selector: #persistValue: argumentList: {nil}.
> >>>> + aMenu popUpInWorld!
> >>>>
> >>>> Item was added:
> >>>> + ----- Method: Preference>>persistValue: (in
> >>> category 'persistence') -----
> >>>> + persistValue: aBooleanOrNil
> >>>> + "Save this preference on file, so it can
> >>> be restored on startup. If nil, delete persistent
> >>> value."
> >>>> + Preferences persistValue: aBooleanOrNil
> >>> for: self name!
> >>>>
> >>>> Item was added:
> >>>> + ----- Method: Preference>>persistedValue (in
> >>> category 'persistence') -----
> >>>> + persistedValue
> >>>> + "Answer the value of this preference
> >>> saved on file, otherwise nil"
> >>>> + ^Preferences persistedValueFor: self
> >>> name!
> >>>>
> >>>> Item was added:
> >>>> + ----- Method: Preferences
> >>> class>>persistedPreferencesAccessible (in category
> >>> 'persistence') -----
> >>>> + persistedPreferencesAccessible
> >>>> + ^SecurityManager default hasFileAccess
> >>>> + !
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> etoys-dev mailing list
> >>> etoys-dev at squeakland.org
> >>> http://lists.squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/etoys-dev
> >>> ________________
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> etoys-dev mailing list
> >>> etoys-dev at squeakland.org
> >>> http://lists.squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/etoys-dev
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> etoys-dev mailing list
> >> etoys-dev at squeakland.org
> >> http://lists.squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/etoys-dev
> >>
> >
> _______________________________________________
> etoys-dev mailing list
> etoys-dev at squeakland.org
> http://lists.squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/etoys-dev
>
>
>
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