[Seaside] state of the aubergine

[Frank Sergeant]

Avi Bryant <avi@beta4.com> wrote:
> Since there's not a huge amount of activity on this list, it's somewhat
> hard to gauge just what's going on out there, seaside-wise.  So I thought

Yes, I have been awfully quiet, which does not reflect the great
goodwill I feel toward you and this project.

> First of all, how many of you are actively using Seaside?

I am not using it actively yet but I think I will in the future.  I read
the first tutorial but I haven't yet worked through it for real.

> good to have a better idea of where you guys are at, how interested you
> are,

I am very interested.

> what's holding you back from using it more, etc.

Mainly that I am swamped and have way too much to do (or that I am way
too inefficient and lazy, which probably means the same thing).  I seem
to be getting further behind rather than getting caught up.
 
> Second of all, what should I be doing in the documentation department?

The more, the better, in general.  At this point, I am the one who is
lagging, not you.

> Would it be
> useful, when I don't have time for a full tutorial, for me to start
> throwing out random short descriptions of features that people might
> otherwise not know about?

Yes, I think this is a great idea.  I save all the messages on this list
for the future.

> For example:
> 
> -----------------------
> BodyContent.  Each embedded subcomponent has an implicit BodyContent

I read through this example but only quickly (with the same excuse as
given above).  I couldn't quite wrap my mind around what it was doing. 
That is most likely my fault and should be fixed when I get a chance to
work through a small application on my own.

> Third of all, what are the features that Seaside needs before people feel
> comfortable doing development in it?  One obvious lack is good persistence
> support.

That isn't stopping me.  I am leaning toward doing something along the
lines of Prevayler that has been discussed here.  I also have a
Python/Metakit database server I could use also (which I am using
currently with a Dolphin application).

> For example, if it came with a lightweight object-relational
> mapping system, would it suddenly become much more viable?  What if there
> were a connection to Oracle?  What if there were a Squeak port of GLORP?

None of those are of interest to me (at this time).  I have done enough
of the object-to-relational (basically following the approach described
in Chamond Liu's book) that I believe I'll prefer the simplicity of
keeping all the objects in RAM (but logging the actions, a la Prevayler,
for full recovery).  I have the luxury in the application I have in mind
that the data will fit in RAM and realize there could be situations
where that wouldn't be suitable.

(I am reminded of a book I read many years ago that had a lovely quote
along the lines of 'Sometimes you need things but sometimes you only
need things because your *things* need things'.)

> Or, what if there were a VisualWorks port of Seaside?

No, don't bother for me.  I would most likely use Squeak.  I am still
annoyed over Cincom's lack of clarity and lack of straightforwardness
with regard to their licensing terms and prices.  As far as I am
concerned, it shifts far too much of the sales burden to the prospect.

> I'm asking all of this because currently, development on Seaside is almost
> exclusively motivated by the needs of my projects,

This is completely satisfactory to me.  I would rather the "single
vision" over a "designed by committee" approach.  That tends to keep it
leaner and cleaner and more understandable, which then makes it easier
for each of us to customize it if we really do have different needs.  At
the same time, the more you explain what and why you are doing, the
better.  Say, what exactly are you using Seaside for?  That might help
further put it into perspective for how we might be able to use it.

I hope my enhusiasm for the project is more encouraging than my inertia
is discouraging.


-- Frank