[Seaside] Why seaside really sucks! COMMMMMMMENTS are MISSING

stephane ducasse stephane.ducasse at free.fr
Sat Apr 7 09:17:10 UTC 2007

I think that having a seaside app generating a simple doc out of  
Squeak class could help
people writing more comments and meaningful class comments.

The examples are already a good step in that directory but comments  
are missing.

Sorry if I did not get all what you said.


On 6 avr. 07, at 19:45, Sebastian Sastre wrote:

> Steph you're right but could be good that you also explain that  
> beside a
> Seaside dyagnosys is a dyagnosys for symptoms of unfriendly  
> "uneducative"
> anti-pattern not uncommon in our community.
> I think we have responsibility to "work" this by helping to introduce
> alternatives to those anti-patterns(*) and "best educative  
> practices in
> Smalltalk" and the related "profilaxy of the uneducative anti- 
> patterns in
> Smalltalk" for us all and not only on Seaside.
> I love criticism is a very healthy thing. A tool for real progress.  
> But one
> must focus on efforts and results.
> So Seaside's results don't suck. Documentation (the lak of it)  
> does. All
> un-human cryptic codification sucks. Smalltalk has a really great,  
> great
> chance to prevent that.
> I imagine that your intention "behind the scenes" is this and you  
> want to
> take some attention with your comments. Is a valid thecnique of  
> creating
> some apparently controversial subject to awake people. I agree with  
> you in
> that.
> And because of that it's also a chance to give two minutes of  
> reflection
> about the value of seeing the code one make and uses as a chance of
> educating perhaps anonymously someone who will read that piece of  
> software
> somwhere in time. Smalltalk has pieces of code that remains for years.
> Others technologies are a lot more volatile than that.
> And as I see is not just "to comment" is to undestand that one can  
> use the
> comment as an oportunity to donate glimpses of your experience  
> doing it. An
> oportunity to express it in the most didactic way you can archieve  
> at that
> moment of glimpse you managed to build up and in which you have  
> apprehension
> of something. You have created an "apprehension field".
> I you leave a mark of that apprehension field you are assisting  
> someone to
> reproduce that field and perhaps helping to archieve it's own  
> apprehension.
> That will save him/her time, misunderstandings, misleadings and for  
> the same
> price, in case you forget a detail, it can save it to yourself in  
> the future
> too.
> That unegoistical attitude would be of precious value. Is not  
> utopic is
> practical and archivable. Often some self-criticism. That could be  
> reflected
> on the prosperity of the system you are working on. The price? 15  
> seconds
> for method and some typing and redacting? That is an investiment  
> that will
> return to you in the form of more people understanding what you do  
> and how
> it works. People that could surpass learning smalltalk frustrations  
> and will
> reach a point in which they'll start to give it's part adding  
> strenght to
> our community that you will surely need to consult in subjects not  
> familiar
> to you.
> I wanted to express that I think that the key to the change we need  
> is to
> adopt thecniques which pruposes sistematical donation of didactic  
> clues
> about the apprehension moments we experiment using Smalltalk.
> That is what one could call programing for persons and not  
> computers and in
> my modest opinion one of the most valuable and subtle things that  
> the spirit
> of Smalltalk has to offer.
> Regards,
> Sebastian Sastre
> (*) I want to put emphasys in all the anti-patterns that are not  
> related to
> programming (see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-pattern) But  
> more than
> the basic reference I'm giving here, I want to put emphasys in the  
> concept
> of our community's own creative anti-patterns.
>> -----Mensaje original-----
>> De: seaside-bounces at lists.squeakfoundation.org
>> [mailto:seaside-bounces at lists.squeakfoundation.org] En nombre
>> de stephane ducasse
>> Enviado el: Jueves, 05 de Abril de 2007 17:32
>> Para: Seaside - general discussion
>> Asunto: [Seaside] Why seaside really sucks! COMMMMMMMENTS are MISSING
>> This is not easy for me to say that because I appreciate the
>> work of Avi, Lukas and Philippe.
>> But I'm sorry to say that but seaside sucks! Not because of
>> the code or the concepts.
>> But because there is really not enough comments. Really! It
>> is really difficult to understand a simple method is doing
>> and if it makes sense to specialize it.
>> This is TERRIBLE since I think that I'm a good programmer but
>> seaside code prevents me to be fully efficient. I have to
>> guess try and error and guess again. I have to ask stupid
>> questions to the mailing-list while I would prefer to use it
>> for  interesting questions. I think that seaside goes even
>> against the philosophy of Smalltalk (a system that someone
>> alone can understand) because this total lacks of comments is
>> TRAPPING me. I cannot use my skills full speed. Thanks what a
>> great feeling.
>> pleaseeeeeee do not tell me to read the code or to use
>> senders! This is really the worse answer I can get.
>> I always hated this kind of answer on smalltalk forums.
>> (Please do not ask me what I'm doing to improve the situation
>> because people knows what I did for seaside and Smalltalk already.)
>> I think that as a community we should do something especially
>> since we have monticello and comments could be easily merged.
>> I pushed a lot seaside and I'm trying to push it again
>> further but come on we should WAKE UP!
>> I would really like that people with knowledge helps
>> improving the situation.
>> So if you think that seaside is cool and it is worth more,
>> spend 30 min of your precious time and add comments, help
>> lukas and the other to make Seaside really a habitable piece of code.
>> Comments are for people that do not know or remember. So if
>> you really want to make the community grow you know what you
>> should do. But may be it is better that seaside stays a cool
>> program for a nice and private club after all.
>> Stef
>> PS: I should say that filelibrary is a good start at
>> documenting a functionality. May be adding method comments
>> would help there too.
>> _______________________________________________
>> Seaside mailing list
>> Seaside at lists.squeakfoundation.org
>> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside
> _______________________________________________
> Seaside mailing list
> Seaside at lists.squeakfoundation.org
> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside

More information about the Seaside mailing list