[Seaside] Seaside / smalltalk: tools and scalability

stephane ducasse stephane.ducasse at free.fr
Wed Apr 18 20:05:35 UTC 2007


Philippe this will change. :)
And squeak will be even cooler.

Stef

> The last time I checked Squeak 3.8 and 3.9 were still under Squeak
> License which is neither OpenSource(tm) nor accepted by the FSF. If
> SqueakL is so cool like we have been told all those years, why
> relicense?
>
>> And further, some answers for Squeak specifically:
>>
>> > 2007/4/17, Jared Nuzzolillo <onceuponapriori at gmail.com>:
>> >> > >  So, here are some questions:
>> >> > >
>> >> > > 1. Should refactoring using the R button on the Class  
>> Browser work?
>> >> As a
>> >> > > test, I tried to rename the stop method of the WAKom class?  
>> I get an
>> >> error
>> >> > > message to the effect of "doesNotUnderstand
>> >> #getArgumentPermutation". Is
>> >> > > there some other image I should use? I am running windows for
>> >> development. I
>> >> > > am open to using another, free VM instead of Squeak, if it  
>> works
>> >> better
>> >> out
>> >> > > of the box. I need a rich class and method browser,  
>> refactoring,
>> >> debugging,
>> >> > > syntax highlighting and preferably code completion. I don't  
>> mind
>> >> installing
>> >> > > "packages" to the image either.
>>
>> There are tons of browsers and tools for Squeak, I am unsure of  
>> the status
>> of RB in say Squeak 3.9, since I seldom use it. But Chris just  
>> posted a
>> prepped dev image, and Damien Cassou also maintains a prepped dev  
>> image
>> that might be worthwhile to track. I tend to personally only track  
>> vanilla
>> releases and add my own tools as I see fit - but that is just a  
>> matter of
>> taste.
>>
>> >> > > 2. Are there any examples of Seaside (or another, similar  
>> smalltalk
>> >> based
>> >> > > server) running heavy-load sites? What is the largest (in  
>> terms of
>> >> load)
>> >> > > site and what sort of traffic does it receive (or alexa  
>> rating if
>> >> > > available)?
>>
>> My guess is that dabbledb.com is the one to check out. Also, for  
>> tips and
>> tricks in scaling Seaside, do check out Ramon's blog:
>>
>> http://onsmalltalk.com
>>
>> >> Is it trivial to set up?
>>
>> It is trivial to set up for playing and development - but not  
>> trivial to
>> set up for large scaling. But not really hard either I guess (by  
>> reading
>> descriptions from Avi and Ramon).
>>
>> >> Part of this exercise is to
>> >> determine
>> >> > > whether moving to Smalltalk is a viable solution  
>> performance-wise as
>> >> opposed
>> >> > > to moving to java as is currently being planned by my  
>> employer.
>>
>> IMHO it all boils down to development effort. Seaside and  
>> Smalltalk simply
>> ROCKS when it comes to advanced, dynamic, complex web apps. And  
>> all the
>> money you easily save there (compared to say a Java setup) can be  
>> spent a
>> little bit on other things that may be lacking.
>>
>> >> > > 3. I absolutely need to have good source control that will  
>> work for,
>> >> say,
>> >> > > two dozen developers working on one project. Is there some  
>> thing
>> >> nice
>> >> that
>> >> > > works with #1 above?
>>
>> VisualWorks has its Store stuff - I guess it is good.
>>
>> And Squeak has Monticello which is really good and nice. I haven't  
>> used it
>> in a larger setup but given its nature I don't foresee any  
>> problems - on
>> the contrary - since it is so darn good at branching/merging having
>> multiple devs working in parallell on different tasks/parts is very
>> simple.
>
> As long as our packages don't get too big. Once that happens
> PackageInfo becomes a major speed bottleneck.
>
>> >> > > 4. Is there any educational material I just "have to"  
>> devour? A
>> >> video?
>> >> > > Tutorial or pdf? A classic text?
>>
>> Ehm, probably plenty. :) Others probably have better pointers. If  
>> you are
>> looking for general Smalltalk stuff - Stephane's free books are of  
>> course
>> very nice, see first link at:
>>
>> http://www.squeak.org/Documentation/
>>
>> >> > > Thank you, all. I am really exciting to begin this journey,  
>> and I
>> >> hoping
>> >> to
>> >> > > get a head start from your collective wisdom.
>>
>> Feel free to ask more - the Squeak community is a helpful and  
>> happy bunch.
>> And the Seasiders too of course! (largely overlapping)
>>
>> regards, Göran
>>
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>>
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