[Seaside] Pondering if Dojo javascript toolkit is more convenientthan Scriptaculous for Seaside solutions

Boris Popov boris at deepcovelabs.com
Thu Apr 26 17:38:39 UTC 2007

I don't see any harm in using whatever JS toolkit that would make your
life easier. Here, for instance, we use both Scriptaculous/Prototype and
YUI extensively, even mixed together,

(html anchor)
 class: 'settings';
 onClick: (html
             yuipanel: editor
             config: [:v | v close: true]);
 with: 'Settings'


yuipanel: component config: block
(self updater)
 evalScripts: true;
 id: 'yuipaneltarget';
 onFailure: ((SUStream new)
               nextPutAll: 'displayGenericError();';
 callback: [:render | 
    | dialog |
    dialog := (Seaside.YUIPanel new)
                immediate: true;
                delegate: component;
    block value: dialog.
    dialog renderContentOn: render];

So it's really up to you to decide what tool is right for the job.


DeepCove Labs Ltd.
4th floor 595 Howe Street
Vancouver, Canada V6C 2T5

boris at deepcovelabs.com


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Thank you.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: seaside-bounces at lists.squeakfoundation.org [mailto:seaside-
> bounces at lists.squeakfoundation.org] On Behalf Of Sebastian Sastre
> Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2007 10:28 AM
> To: 'Seaside - general discussion'
> Subject: [Seaside] Pondering if Dojo javascript toolkit is more
> convenientthan Scriptaculous for Seaside solutions
> Hi there,
>     I like to share some ideas about the value equation (scoring) of
> Seaside systems (solutions) and to purpouse to evaluate somethig that
> suspect that could add value this equation so, if this suspiction is
> finally right, it will add value for all the comunity, so we all won.
>     Imagine you have a scoring equation wich defines the value of your
> seasside solution. This equation have the general form of:
>     Each term is a function of value (scoring) of different domains:
> instance.. X1 is loadbalance, X2 is memory scalability, X3 is
> scalability, X4 is complexity scalability, etc. As the terms can be
> complex scoring functions, this equation is also a sort of composite
> we'll express it in "patternese".
>     Given that, I want to make focus on two terms that are important
> developers: 1. Content and 2. Form.
>     For (non static) web applications (or online systems as I like to
> Seaside is a framework that irrefutably takes care of "the contents"
> solves basically and consistently "the form" using html and CSS. In
> form term I want to ponder a (sub)equation of two terms:
>     1. Usability. The digital ergonomy. The empirical ease of use of
> systems. The facilities that your applications had to offer to end
> (daily?) users.
>     2. Cosmetic. The indumentary of the systems. Pure eye candy makeup
> which users like to, as it's clothes, be able to renew often and
> and numerously.
>     For the contents I have no further comments because I consider
> to be vanguardist and by far the best in it's field. So for me,
> has reached irrefutability. This means that for the "sale" (final
> value) this term sells OK. Now.. for the form (usability+cosmetic) we
> reached an acceptable scoring but I think I found a way in wich we can
> improve those terms in a way in direction of form (usability+cosmetic)
> irrefutable scores.
>     Said that, the concrete purpouse is to evaluate Dojo javascript
> toolkit as being used for Seaside applications. (see:
> http://dojotoolkit.org/)
>     I read that Dojo is ready to be use from Ruby so I think that
> should stop us to use it also from Seaside. Seems to be that Dojo
> community has some support from IBM so this should weight something in
> balance. A first look into the demos could show you nice form value.
> you take a look on the widgets in the API documentation, try to forget
> cosmetic for a moment and see the usability that those widgets have to
> offer (and I mean the contents and not how they made the documentation
> interface). Take a look into the panes with draggeable splitters for
> instance. That can't be done with css. CSS can't even give us (yet) an
> appropiated general solution for elemental #north, #south, #center
> automatic layouts. To make that you end up using CSS hacks that leads
> to have an early compromise with the page shape. This deteriorates the
> "desktopability" of web applications.
>     I don't know you but I found those widgets very good in what they
> and I think that to have them in sum to seaside applications will rise
> score of seaside solutions significantly.
>     My experience shows that wrapping this toolkit should lead us to a
> hierarchy as rich as any Smalltalk View hierarchy of a Smalltalk that
> using native widgets. So this means coupling because the classes end
> wrapping system events and calls to build the views. Here there will
> Dojo events and Dojo calls to build up the windows (yes it can do
> inside a page) in the browser. But the add of coupling will be with a
> cross-platform javascript widgets framework so we won vanguardist
> smalltalkish way usable that work for lots of browsers in lots of
OS's. So
> with this choice we end up using javascript calls as the dlls (or
> homologous) libraries calls of a native system (which is the browser
> this case).
>     Finally, if a Seaside is about the "descktopability" of web
> applications, then Seaside+Dojo could be a good deal. Once the
> it's done and maintained, It will modify the whole equation allowing
> whole score to raise more dramatically for the same development
> That will maintain Seaside and Smalltalk itself to the vanguard
> the creation of Smalltalk solutions of high real value. An ammount of
> value that other web application frameworks could only dream about.
>     Now the realistic questions:
>         Why do you  or do you not found Dojo a convenient choice?
>         Beside Scriptaculous, do you know another choice than Dojo? it
> will lead us to where? how far?
>         Do you admit that wrapping Dojo will lead us to a View
>         Admiting that this frameworks are a View...
>             Do you found Model-View-Controller can be used in Seaside
> applications?
>             Do you found Model-View-Presenter more suitable?
>             Do you found another event-model-view glue more convenient
> than those? which one? why?
>     cheers,
> Sebastian Sastre

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