[Seaside] another reason Rails gets market share and Seaside doesn't

Jason Rogers jacaetevha at gmail.com
Wed Jul 18 12:23:31 UTC 2007

I probably should have prefaced my subject with a "was: [Seaside]
[ANN] new Seaside homepage" because my comments were spurred by the
discussion there.

I am not interested in "winning souls to Seaside", nor am I pitting
Seaside against Rails or any other mode of doing things.  My comments
are mere observations -- not attacks.

Personally, I would like to use Seaside at work more, but the current
state of things won't allow it.

You ask what am I doing to support Seaside?  I use it, which (if
nothing else) is good enough.  I create patches when I find bugs
(which usually get fixed before I get around to submitting them).  I
give demos on Seaside to anyone who will listen in order to pique
their curiosity.  I am currently writing an article on Seaside for a
Linux magazine.  I am also hoping to plan a Smalltalk conference on
the East Coast with another member of this list.  So I am doing

I don't blame you for taking offense (or whatever you call it) at my
comments -- I didn't preface them well.

On 7/17/07, Conrad Taylor <conradwt at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi, I agree with the point that Giles makes in response to the comments by
> Jason.  Also, I would like to say that market share doesn't mean anything.
>  For example, more people are using PHP than Rails. Also, more people are
> using Java than Rails.  Please don't get me wrong but I do like Rails as
> well as its community but don't try to pit Seaside against Rails.  It's a
> different framework for building web applications.  One of the prerequisites
> of Seaside development is to be fairly comfortable with Smalltalk.  Also,
> one needs to be comfortable with Ruby to be proficient at Rails.  Next,
> agile developer should be a part of the solution instead a part of the
> problem.  Thus, in the open-source community, if something doesn't exist,
> you build it and/or assist in its implementation.  For example, Alan Knight
> has built GLORP and is also working on an ActiveRecord implementation.
>  Seaside is a community effort and it should be treated as such.  Jason,
> what are you doing to provide support to Seaside instead of pointing out its
> shortcomings in comparison to Rails?  I'm sure that there's a list of
> enhancements that need developers to implement.
> -Conrad
> On 7/17/07, Giles Bowkett <gilesb at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > The bulk of my development work has been in Java, Smalltalk and Ruby
> > > (~60%, ~10%, ~30% respectively).  I have done quite a bit of
> > > development in Rails.  With this background, I would like to offer one
> > > more reason why I think Rails gets more market-share than our beloved
> > > Seaside.
> > >
> > > Hypothesis: many developers get sucked into Rails and the RailsWay
> > > simply because it's so easy to prototype new apps or get quick and
> > > dirty solutions running.
> >
> > I think this is true. I'm pretty sure ease of adoption is a priority
> > for Rails core. But I don't think this is necessarily such a problem.
> > Rails apps, because of the incredibly gentle learning curve, are kind
> > of a magnet for bad code. The goal isn't to take over the world or
> > whatever. Just because lots of people are into Rails doesn't
> > necessarily mean your Rails experience will be a good one.
> >
> > --
> > Giles Bowkett
> >
> > Blog: http://gilesbowkett.blogspot.com
> > Portfolio: http://www.gilesgoatboy.org
> > _______________________________________________
> > Seaside mailing list
> > Seaside at lists.squeakfoundation.org
> > http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside
> >

Jason Rogers

"I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live;
yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life
which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of
the Son of God, who loved me, and gave
himself for me."
    Galatians 2:20

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