[Seaside] another reason Rails gets market share andSeasidedoesn't

Ramon Leon ramon.leon at allresnet.com
Wed Jul 18 20:47:43 UTC 2007

> With all due respect (and I *do* respect you enormously!), 
> Smalltalk is a great language with which to learn OOP. I was 
> briefly introduced to C# and I didn't like it. Smalltalk is 
> so much more elegant. You shouldn't have to be an OOP expert 
> before using Smalltalk.

Thanks, and I agree, let me rephrase what I was trying to say...

If you don't prefer the OO approach, Smalltalk really isn't the language you
want to be in.

I was saying that because Seaside is heavily object oriented, as is Magritte
and Pier, and you won't be able to use them effectively unless you
understand object oriented code.  Few beginners do.

> You are not understanding me correctly. You should not dumb 
> down a framework for beginners. Seaside *ought* to be a power 
> tool. All I'm saying is, lower the entry barrier--minimize 
> the learning curve--with accurate, up-to-date tutorials based 
> on non-trivial, full-fledged web applications. Provide great 
> documentation. *Streamline* the learning curve for beginners 
> (even beginners who have years of Java experience).

OK, then we agree.

> >From what I've seen of Seaside so far, there is no reason whatsoever 
> >its
> power can't be made more accessible to the "masses."

I can name one, Smalltalk.  Seaside can't be accessible to the masses
because Smalltalk isn't accessible to the masses because it's *different*.
The masses don't like different.  The masses want files and text editors and
svn or cvs.  The masses don't want to change, Smalltalk requires change,
instant conflict.  

Using Seaside requires two giant changes, adopting Smalltalk and adopting an
entirely different approach to web development.  As Smalltalk is 30+ years
old and hasn't been adopted by the masses, I don't see Seaside doing it.
What's more likely to happen is that Seaside will be influential and other
languages will copy (as best they can) Seaside's approach, just like after
Rails everyone started adopting ActiveRecord (despite the fact that
ActiveRecord was an old well known pattern long before Rails).

> I certainly do not share this view. There's nothing wrong 
> with being a niche player, but I have greater hopes for Seaside.

I do hope the community grows, but I don't want to see it turn into a fad
like Rails where the bandwagon jumps aboard.  Smaller communities are more
focused and fun.

> Absolutely right! Don't offer scaffolding and templates!
> Don't dumb down the framework. The framework itself doesn't 
> have to be easier to use--just the infrastructure support 
> such as documentation, tutorials, etc. (For example, it's a 
> pain searching the Seaside archives for specific topics.) 
> Lower the barrier to entry.
> But Seaside can *still* aspire to greatness.
> Regards,
> Richard

OK, that all sounds great, we're in agreement.

Ramon Leon

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