[Seaside] Seaside, Traits, portability

Tue May 1 12:13:47 UTC 2007

Exactly, hence me trying to figure out a way to contribute directly versus relying on Michel so much. As far as GemStone, from what I've heard here so far they are staying away from modifying the base code, so porting should be more or less straightforward for them, but certainly, they do need someone like Michel to keep things evolving and improving if this takes off and I have a sense they understand that.

Cheers!

-Boris
(Sent from a BlackBerry)

----- Original Message -----
From: seaside-bounces at lists.squeakfoundation.org <seaside-bounces at lists.squeakfoundation.org>
To: Seaside - general discussion <seaside at lists.squeakfoundation.org>
Sent: Tue May 01 05:08:04 2007
Subject: Re: [Seaside] Seaside, Traits, portability

2007/5/1, Boris Popov <boris at deepcovelabs.com>:
>
>
>
> Stephane, I'll tell you where exactly things have gone wrong for me. We are
> using VisualWorks for a reason and for someone to suggest that I should ask
> Cincom to get my money back on this list is somewhat interesting, because
> the whole idea behind seaside like many have pointed out since is to have a
> framework that's clean and portable.

It's not, seriously. It was never meant to be. It's full of
squeakisms. Don't get me started on the whole #asString ->
#displayString issue, or where you can use Strings and where Symbols,
and oh Squeak:Date and Seaside:Date, #asUnicode, #= on Sets or the
ugly hack that is SeasidePlatformSupport. Don't even think about
WideStrings and the whole sever adapter issue. Smalltalk is just not
portable, that's sad but true. It works on VisualWorks because
continuously a lot of effort is put into it by Michel. Up to now the
Dolphin port was a one time thing done by Avi for money. Yes I know
Esteban is working on a port of 2.7 but I haven't heard anything from
from him since February. I have high hopes for the Gemstone port and
if they can pay (!) someone like Michel maintaining it then chances of
success are good.

Don't get me wrong, I am very much interested in increasing
portability. I'm just saying how things are. If you don't like
something, we are open for your suggestions or even better: code.

Cheers
Philippe

> We can't afford such arrogance simply
> because we don't have enough traction and mindshare to justify it and the
> only chance for us to ever get any of  either is to work together instead of
> doing what we're doing now.
>
>  Having said all that, have you heard of anyone trying to port MC to
> VisualWorks? Its something I'm going to play with on my flight back home
> from Toronto after my talk, but thought I'd check here first in case someone
> had started already.
>
>  Avi, not sure if Colin is on this list, perhaps he might know of such
> attempts?
>
>  Cheers!
>
>  -Boris
>  (Sent from a BlackBerry)
>
>  ----- Original Message -----
>  From: seaside-bounces at lists.squeakfoundation.org
> <seaside-bounces at lists.squeakfoundation.org>
>  To: Seaside - general discussion
> <seaside at lists.squeakfoundation.org>
>  Sent: Tue May 01 01:31:05 2007
>  Subject: Re: [Seaside] Seaside, Traits, portability
>
>  just a last remark:
>          traits do not exist at run-time AT ALL. They are just structuring
>  static elements.
>          So this to me like saying that using MC is not good to run squeak
>  application.
>          I do not really understand the problem that traits have. May be I'm
>  too stupid to understand.
>          especially since for ports the code can be without traits.
>
>  Stef
>
>  On 30 avr. 07, at 19:45, Avi Bryant wrote:
>
>  > On 4/29/07, Boris Popov <boris at deepcovelabs.com> wrote:
>  >
>  >> Why be so cynical? Different strokes for different folks. I've
>  >> felt many
>  >> times that you couldn't care less about anyone not using squeak
>  >> and it does
>  >> nothing but motivate me to unsubscribe from the list for good.
>  >
>  > Boris, please don't unsubscribe. I think you'll find the vast majority
>  > of people on this list care deeply about keeping Seaside portable
>  > across dialects - I would guess that at this point it's the largest
>  > portable Smalltalk codebase, and the largest cross-dialect community,
>  > and that's very important to me and to many others.
>  >
>  > For that reason and others, nobody who uses Seaside in production is
>  > seriously proposing that we make it depend on Traits - as far as I
>  > know, nobody uses Traits in production, period.  By all means, let's
>  > have an academic discussion about the costs and benefits of Traits,
>  > but let's do it with a very clear understanding that it is indeed
>  > academic, and *not* a proposal that's going to affect mainline Seaside
>  > any time even vaguely soon.
>  >
>  > Avi
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