[Seaside] SushiStore removed from Seaside
ssastre at seaswork.com
Thu Nov 22 18:49:27 UTC 2007
> I do want tools for teaching - ideally communal,
> standardised, well chosen and easily available on the internet.
> I have the problem of having to cope with deprecated
> techniques - seeing how existing examples need to be modified
> would make shifting over easier for people like me. Having
> put a lot of effort into learning Seaside I now find myself
> having to re-learn it for a third time - and to be blunt I am
> a bit fed up. I don't have anyone around me to teach me and
> I find it very hard to filter through the mass of 'stuff'
> about it on the internet. I have produced images, hand-outs,
> examples etc.., and now I have to do it yet again.
As I see or we develop resiliance to this or we give up. This is not
exclusive for Seaside nor Smalltalk. In fact Smalltalk solutions tend to
last longer because when they achieve enough conceptual correctness. Said
that: welcome to the re-learning re-inventing industry :)
> If well chosen examples are available on the internet I (and
> many others introducing Seaside) won't have to make images
> and load stuff time and again when we want to show the
> product to people.
But that depends on what you want to show and probably want to show
something with customized value. That's why I suggested to prepare your own
image ready for teach/distribute among students.
> The 'zero config' image you talk of needs to be shared by the
> whole community. It gives us something we can use for
> teaching and talk about at conferences - and that people can
> later easily load up for themselves.
All this has MIT licenses so I don't see why you cannot make a distributable
image, let's say in your own page or blog (in fact Ramon does exacly that),
and materializes what you are asking for at a very reasonable (personal)
> I stand by my assertion that a well chosen inbuilt example
> (along the lines of Sushi) is well worth having. Probably I
> am not the person to write it - I am not yet in tune with the
> new ways. (However, I have spent some time on it and am part
> of the way in.)
Why do you think you're not? You said you are a teacher and you understands
and teaches with Seaside what else do you need? If you need some "tunning"
then tune. You have this list of persons who dedicate some effort to support
your (and other's) technical questions.
> If the gurus want a purist core, then perhaps we could have a
> demo core also available in parallel? It would be
> interesting to see which would get downloaded more often.
But Bob there are priorities. In this moment we cannot pretend to put the
responsibility of that in the shoulders of a very short in resources
development team. The sacrifices that it can imply as consequence will not
be reasonable. Besides don't think about gurus. Who care them. Nobody is
guru of a "non blind" person. It has also no value to push things to a
pointless comparision arena like which version is loaded more. There is no
richness in that. Just evaluate results of what can be done with this
machinery. Your results. Results of your students. Community results.
Technology should be intended to make a better life of persons involved on
the use of it. That's is richness and that should be "the goal". Make some
with Seaside if it's your choice.
I understand you're enthusiastic but with some disappointments about tools
for your goals. But that's life. Smalltalk has a relatively small community
and members use to surpass this some way or another by having, lot of times,
to invest effort on applying the criteria of: "if you think of it you can
> Hi Bob,
> ideas like features and framework practices can be
> learned from code examples. If you recall, it was told here
> that the Sushi example uses some deprecated techniques so it
> simply has no sense to have in the core package potentially
> replicating deprecated practices. That way is simply too easy
> to inadvertedly be teaching what is wrong. I'm sure you may
> know how expensive is to un-teach what is teached wrong. So
> applying for this case the criteria of "when in doubt refrain
> yourself" seems intelligent decision to me.
> I imagine you want tools for teaching and is nothing
> wrong with that. In fact is great you are using this for
> teaching so note that you can use it anyway if you still find
> it useful and you filter the wrong part for your students
> but have in mind that may be that is not the same intention
> the Seaside team is having (due to be unable to filter the
> same you will for every independent newcomer non one of your
> students among other things).
> If what you want is a zero config situation for your
> students, why don't you just load it in a fresh image to
> distribute among your students?
> You can put other convenient examples for the way you plan to
> teach too and also your own ones.
> Sebastian Sastre
> seaside mailing list
> seaside at lists.squeakfoundation.org
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