[Seaside] Seaside vs. Traditional
philippe.marschall at gmail.com
Sun Mar 30 11:28:20 UTC 2008
2008/3/30, Conrad Taylor <conradwt at gmail.com>:
> Hi, is there any particular reason for comparing Seaside with another
> framework in a Seaside mailing list?
Yes, I truly believe so. To better understand for which tasks Seaside
isn't suite, what problems people have with Seaside and of course what
strengths and advantages Seaside has over other frameworks.
> If you're interested in Seaside, then
> use it. If you're interested in AIDA web, then use it. From my experience,
> it seems that most frameworks were built or evolved to solve a particular
> problem and the developer(s) couldn't find a suitable choice and/or didn't
> like the available choice(s) in the existing frameworks. Next, I would
> highly recommend learning Smalltallk to truly exploit the power of Seaside.
> This is true of any framework (i.e. learn Ruby to exploit Rails, learn PHP
> to exploit Zend Framework, learn C# or VB to exploit ASP.Net and so
> on). Lastly, there are other pieces of the puzzle that one has to learn
> that go beyond simply learning the language of a framework.
> Good luck,
> On Sat, Mar 29, 2008 at 8:05 AM, Rob Rothwell <r.j.rothwell at gmail.com>
> > Hello...
> > I would like explore a little further the post "Seaside vs. Traditional"
> at http://www.lukas-renggli.ch/blog? because:
> > 1. I was a sound bite! ("As a new Smalltalker, I couldn't understand
> Seaside.") Kind of embarrassing, huh?!
> > 2. This post did not fully help me understand the source of my
> inabilities! Even more embarrassing!
> > The two basic statements I am [mostly] referencing are:
> > 1. I've experienced this many times while giving dozens of tutorials on
> Seaside. There are always some people that have a very hard time to get
> their head around Seaside, mostly because they think in terms of TRADITIONAL
> WEB FRAMEWORKS (my emphasis).
> > 2. On the other hand, Seaside is AMAZINGLY SIMPLE (my emphasis) for
> people without MUCH (my emphasis) prior web development experience.
> > Well, unfortunately, I have NO prior web development experience. And I
> mean NONE. Look at me, I have copied and pasted from another site and now
> have indents (likely due to HTML that I don't understand) that I can't even
> get rid of in the Gmail editor!
> > Anyway, I completely skipped that part of the 21st century, much to my
> current dismay. I have Assembly Language, FORTRAN, and Visual Basic
> experience. I am the classic [boring] example of "Why does the world seem
> inside out in Smalltalk!"
> > Nonetheless, I became enchanted by "a better way," and have stuck with my
> attempts to learn Smalltalk for nearly four years, most of which has been
> spent "building images" with each new Squeak release and staring at an
> "empty browser."
> > I have a degree in Physics, I have been "programming" since I was 11, and
> I was a U.S. Army Airborne Ranger Medic.
> > Smalltalk has been the first thing in my life that was ever hard for me!
> > So...fun! But...frustrating, because I wanted to get real WORK done with
> it, and kept going back to obviously "lesser ways" just to get something
> > Ok. Enough background. The point I am trying to make is that I tried. I
> googled. I would meet a couple of guys once a month or so that CAN
> Smalltalk. Seaside made sense...when they were doing it! Then, I went back
> to the empty browser.
> > My impression is still that you need to have a certain level of
> accomplishment in Smalltalk itself before the...elegance...of the framework
> as at your disposal. This isn't a bad thing, although it does leave me
> feeling a little incapable, but, hey--the number of objects at your command
> when you open a Squeak image for the first time are simply overwhelming. And
> "overwhelmed" would be how I would describe my experience with Seaside to
> be, because it "looks so easy," so why can't I figure it out? Which,
> coincidentally, is EXACTLY how I feel watching an experienced Smalltalker do
> > So, I agree with you. Seaside IS harder for those with a "traditional"
> background. But I think traditional includes standard static language
> programming to produce basic client applications for typical operating
> systems. And from THAT point of view, I feel like I don't understand web
> programming ENOUGH to even lay things out on the screen where I want them to
> be, or get images into my application (yes, basic stuff like that).
> > And so then there is Aida as well, which WAS easier coming from a
> "traditional" (my definition) background.
> > Now, I do not want to be thwarted so easily and will surely continue to
> try to understand Seaside because I think that will help me continue to
> understand Smalltalk.
> > But WHY was Aida easier for me? Is it because it is "less powerful?" "More
> procedural?" Because I CAN lay things out on the screen quite easily "the
> wrong way" with tables? Is it more "concrete?" These are all "negative"
> phrases as if I should assume somehow that Seaside has the upper hand in
> some way I do not understand.
> > I obviously don't have the answers! I didn't even know Aida existed until
> Janko posted his benchmarks on the Cincom site and because I was struggling
> with Seaside I gave it a shot. I DO think that after spending some time with
> Aida, I will be able to understand Seaside better, which is MOST
> interesting, because somewhere in that thought lies the gap between my own
> process capability (my ability to simply use Smalltalk) and the capability
> demanded by the system (Seaside, Aida, or any set of classes for that
> matter), which is the classic gap inherent in any system implementation.
> > Anyway, if I can figure this out better, I may be able to help others
> succeed where I have struggled, because I am obviously missing something.
> > In the meantime, keep up the good work! I am intrigued by the "meta"
> abilities of your solutions with both Seaside and Magritte and their
> apparent ability to act as an elegantly abstract layer for Content--which
> could be useful in appropriately complex situations. Unfortunately, I don't
> think I'm ready yet. Maybe someday...when I grow up, and can handle that
> level of abstraction!
> > I hope this doesn't sound like the beginning of another "Us vs. Them"
> post. I've had enough of that with LPGL vs. MIT! I just want to
> understand...what I don't understand!
> > Anyone going to the Smalltalk Solutions conference? I am trying to
> position myself to go...maybe in the shear presence of mastery I can pick up
> on some of the stuff I am missing!
> > Rob
> > _______________________________________________
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