[Seaside] how much introduction?

stephane ducasse stephane.ducasse at free.fr
Sat Nov 1 09:49:23 UTC 2008 

On Nov 1, 2008, at 5:56 AM, lists at moedae.net wrote:

> Having not done a survey, I can only talk from my personal  
> experience. So far my personal experience is I have had about the  
> same number of issues in 2 weeks of using Pharo as in 2 years with  
> Squeak 3.9 and 3.10.
>
> In Pharo, some OmniBrowser functionality was broken and as I said  
> timesRepeat: was broken. It had a '<' rather than '<=' for the loop  
> comparison so the loop ran one too few times. I ran an update which  
> fixed both problems. However the update also changed the World menu  
> and eliminated the flaps (I like the new menu and the flaps were  
> redundant). As someone who has used SmallTalk for over 20 years and  
> someone who hopefully understands why Pharo is so dynamic at the  
> moment, I can live with the issues mentioned previously. When I  
> debugged my loop, got to the timesRepeat: method and saw the test  
> condition, it was obvious what was wrong.

This is strange since I did not recall a change at that level.

> I then performed an update in the hope that someone had already  
> fixed the problem. They had. I wanted to try out SmallFaces. I  
> loaded and started to test SmallFaces in the latest Pharo image. The  
> code broke. It turns out Pharo's Color class was missing #hex:. A  
> method in the 3.9

This is strange since we started from 3.9

> and 3.10 images and used by SmallFaces. Again, a minor item to fix,  
> but not if you are new to SmallTalk and Squeak/Pharo.

I agree pharo is probably changing too fast for a new comers.
I should have say: 'Sergio if you hate the long menus of squeak have a  
look at pharo. If one day you start to look at squeak and start to  
think that there
	are some really bad smell like core behavior depending on UI, then  
have a look at pharo'

Note please report to us any problem you get for running your  
applications.

> Before recommending the current version of Pharo to a new  
> SmallTalker, I think one really needs to ask oneself how they would  
> react if while feeling lost trying to learn a new language and  
> environment, the menus for the environment suddenly changed after an  
> update. Or their potential confusion when the environment doesn't  
> match all the existing tutorials.

I agree.
BTW: this is Smalltalk and not SmallTalk

> I once worked at a company where we were growing so fast, every day  
> I went to work, the office walls had moved. I started to have dreams  
> about falling asleep at my desk and waking up to find my office door  
> replaced by a wall. The growth was exciting because it was a sign of  
> our success but it definitely made life difficult for new employees.  
> This is Pharo at the moment.

:)
Good.!

>
>
>> I would argue the inverse: Take soon the one click image with the new
>> browser of david and the clean menu.
>
> Yes, when it is released and stable it would be better. But it is  
> neither at present.

It depends what you call stable :)
>
>
> Taun
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "David Mitchell" <david.mitchell at gmail.com>
> To: "Seaside - general discussion"  
> <seaside at lists.squeakfoundation.org>
> Sent: Friday, October 31, 2008 9:34:23 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
> Subject: Re: [Seaside] how much introduction?
>
> I agree with Stef,
>
> I moved my production code to Pharo last month and I've had no issue  
> reports.
>
> I've loaded Seaside, MySql, and my own code.
>
>
> On Fri, Oct 31, 2008 at 7:36 AM, stephane ducasse
> <stephane.ducasse at free.fr> wrote:
>>
>> On Oct 29, 2008, at 3:17 PM, Taun wrote:
>>
>>> I think the real point Philippe made is a good one. It is not good  
>>> for the
>>> Squeak/Smalltalk community to point a new user to an alpha  
>>> product. The new
>>> user should be pointed to a stable functional platform so they can
>>> concentrate on learning the language not the platform bugs.
>>
>> Come on we are a good group of people using pharo daily and it has  
>> less bugs
>> than squeak.
>> I know since I harvested the fixes.
>>
>>> Philippe's example of breakage was an example for why Pharo might  
>>> not be
>>> good for Sergio.
>>
>> I think that this is not true.
>> Do you think that a newcomer is not overhlem by the squeak menu!
>>
>>
>>> As an additional example, I was using Pharo the other day and while
>>> testing one of my models, I discovered #timesRepeat: was broken.
>>
>> I would be really amazed that timesRepeat: would be broken in pharo.
>> Can you tell us, which version and how to reproduce that?
>>
>>
>>> Imagine Sergio running some simple sample code loops and getting  
>>> the wrong
>>> answer. What is that going to do to his newly forming opinion of  
>>> Squeak?
>>>
>>> Again, these are not criticisms of Pharo, simply reasons why Pharo  
>>> might
>>> not be the right tool for a beginning Squeak/Seaside user.
>>
>> I would argue the inverse: Take soon the one click image with the new
>> browser of david and the clean menu.
>> Pharo will have much more tests than any squeak distro.
>> Pharo contains far less broken code than 3.9 or 3.10.
>>
>> After the point is that we are working on it so when you update you  
>> can get
>> some glitches.
>> But even with that I think that this is better than 3.9.
>>
>> Stef
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Taun
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Adrian Lienhard" <adi at netstyle.ch>
>>> To: "Seaside - general discussion" <seaside at lists.squeakfoundation.org 
>>> >
>>> Sent: Monday, October 27, 2008 12:45:32 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada  
>>> Eastern
>>> Subject: Re: [Seaside] how much introduction?
>>>
>>> Pharo currently is in alpha, so its surprising you expect it to be
>>> free of bugs. We are making a lot of progress, so sometimes a change
>>> breaks some unexpected functionality. Usually, though, this is fixed
>>> within few days. We will soon go to beta and then produce a release
>>> that is going to be maintained. That's where you can expect  
>>> stability.
>>>
>>> Adrian
>>>
>>> On Oct 27, 2008, at 17:25 , Philippe Marschall wrote:
>>>
>>>> 2008/10/27 stephane ducasse <stephane.ducasse at free.fr>:
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi sergio
>>>>>
>>>>> when you will be fit on the syntax and the environment. I suggest
>>>>> you to
>>>>> take
>>>>> the pharo image since it is really starting to get cleaner and
>>>>> cleaner.
>>>>> http://code.google.com/p/pharo/
>>>>
>>>> I don't want to bash any of you but I have had some really bad
>>>> experiences with Pharo. Stuff like ClassBuilder exploding in my  
>>>> face
>>>> and OmniBrowser not working.
>>>>
>>>> Cheers
>>>> Philippe
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>>>
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>>
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