[Seaside] A new critical blog discussing Seaside

Torsten Bergmann astares at gmx.de
Fri Apr 17 23:12:31 UTC 2009

Hi Mr. Anonymous,

>many of these people consider themselves as experienced Smalltalk gurus 

AFAIK nobody within the seaside community claimed to be a Smalltalk guru,
otherwise tell us where you got this impression from.

I'm sure this community is a mix (newbees up to long term smalltalkers)
and both parties can learn from each other, as in any other community.

>As a software architect with more than 10 years experience

Seriously - that really looks like you wrote that just to show the world
that you are the "Smalltalk guru" here and only your position is correct

If you are a good software architect then you should discuss problems and 
possible solutions with ALL (seaside) developers like a good team player. 

But it looks like you prefer to give vent to your feelings after a short 
discussion with only ONE member. And why discuss all this on a medium that
is only controlled anonymously by yourself (your blog)? 

Nobody here (except Lukas and you) will ever know the exact words from your 
phone call. But to me your behavior looks very childish and not correct 
for an architect who should know that a good team and team spirit is
required to meet goals.

Will you blame your whole team of developers at work if you have a 
(maybe personal) problem with only one? 

Anything I've heard so far is ranting that there is a lack of
documentation. Yes there is documentation, not much and most of it is 
outdated. As Stephane said: help improving the situations instead of 
following a personal war. Write or update a tutorial, help to comment the framework, create demos, ...

And as Phillipe said Seaside is not considered perfect or done and will 
(hopefully) constantly be improved. If you turn your mind maybe with your

But take care - this is an open community, you are not automatically the 
architect or decision maker here (same applies to Lukas) - if others will 
disagree code may not be accepted. If you want to influence the framework
you have to gain trust from people for your code, decisions and arguments.

You have to live with that, otherwise switch to another or write your own
framework. But this is not seaside specific, if you want to change the way
Linux, OpenOffice, you name it ... works or is coded/documented you first
have to get accepted by the community. Writing such a post may
bring some attention in the first place but is not the best start 
in the long run. 

Not beeing a core seaside developer I had no problem so far in getting 
things changed or included ... neither in seaside nor in pharo.

If suggestions will not find their way into the core libraries I was 
able to to make them available to others via "seasideexamples" on squeaksource.com.

You can even fork if you want (assuming the endurance and
enough resources).

>The previous reactions on the Seaside mailing list show well that there 
>is a small but rather "conspirative" community who is not open to outside

LOFL - yes very "conspirative"! Thats why the list is open in public, anybody is able to participate and discuss and free to share code and 
improve the framework.

Come on - save your energy for something better than this silly theory.

You are the one who wants to build a secret around his own person -
but honesty would be better here. But you may have your reasons...

>I am currently fighting to get a Seaside server running. The many negative >experiences and frustrations 

Share your problems on the list and I'm sure there will be help. At least 
it will be known and can be addressed in future versions.

About your suggestions:

>I also invite other critical writers to join in to publishing concrete
>engineering proposal on my blog

Why do you think your private blog is a better discussion place than the official and open mailinglist? Do you discuss proposals and ideas at work 
with anonymous external engineers? ;) 

>I invite everybody to build a little community to document and improve 
>Seaside, which will save all of us and all future users a lot of time. 

Well roared, lion! So we all can expect real results from you that are 
positive for seaside and the whole seaside community (including yourself)
in the short/long term.

Thanks and bye

"An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field." - Niels Bohr

Psssst! Schon vom neuen GMX MultiMessenger gehört? Der kann`s mit allen: http://www.gmx.net/de/go/multimessenger01

More information about the seaside mailing list