[Seaside] A new critical blog discussing Seaside - @Sebastian
Sastre
TheSmalltalkBlog at gmx.ch
TheSmalltalkBlog at gmx.ch
Sat Apr 18 11:38:22 UTC 2009
Sebastian, I fully understand you:
There is finally somebody daring to frankly criticise the gods of Seaside in very open words and with some good arguments and he is not willing to make the Kowtow in front of the Seaside emperors!
That's an unexcusable sin!
But as long as somebody refuses to document their work, it's extremely hard for me to take them seriously. There has never been any excuse or confession by the authors that it was/is a great mistake not to document.
If they were saying clearly: If you want to understand Seaside then you must hire me, it'd be fine for me. But I hate lies and dissimulations.
Just one example.
And even if you don't consider my issues "massive" why don't you at least admit that I am making some serious points?!
Or don't want to get blamed like some other writer here who was immediately corrected for showing some understanding for my points?! He was made shut-up.
We have this typical community situation:
You all stick together because I am disturbing your circles. I am standing in your sun while you are the Diogenes in the barrel who says: "Go our of my sun".
I am most constructive on my blog. Why don't you join in?! Could be anonymous so that you won't get beaten by the others of this community.
You - and everybody else - are welcome!
Greetings from Mr. Cucumber
-------- Original-Nachricht --------
> Datum: Sat, 18 Apr 2009 08:14:37 -0300
> Von: "Sebastian Sastre" <ssastre at seaswork.com>
> An: "\'Seaside - general discussion\'" <seaside at lists.squeakfoundation.org>
> Betreff: RE: RE: [Seaside] A new critical blog discussing Seaside - nowconcreteproposals
> Heh, faaaar from being hurt :)
> Technically I don't share your view about any of the problems you mention
> as
> "massive problems".
> Fortunately Seaside success is not coupled to your cause.
> By the way, reading your blog I can see personal allegations is your
> favourite
> way to argument positions.
> After the things said and your response to it you are showing zero willing
> for
> reflection about your attitude. A waste.
> Of course I'm interested in Seaside to get better. That includes the brand
> Seaside getting better which your emails and blog tone *proves the fact*
> you are
> totally ignoring. And you show compromise to a plan that works against it.
> sebastian
>
> > -----Mensaje original-----
> > De: seaside-bounces at lists.squeakfoundation.org
> > [mailto:seaside-bounces at lists.squeakfoundation.org] En nombre
> > de Peter Jedermann
> > Enviado el: Saturday, April 18, 2009 00:13
> > Para: Seaside - general discussion
> > Asunto: Re: RE: [Seaside] A new critical blog discussing
> > Seaside - nowconcreteproposals
> >
> > Not one word on facts! Nothing but personal allegations!
> >
> > You seem to be personally hurt! Of course, that was not my
> > intention and I am sure that the cause for this must be in
> > yourself alone. I wanted nothing but to discuss facts and
> > massive problems!
> >
> > Anyway, I am not wasting my time on personal discussions!
> >
> > Please read my block and when I could convince you of me
> > seriousness, then we can continue discussing Smalltalk subjects!
> >
> > And if you think that my arguments are wrong, then either
> > prove me wrong or ignore me.
> >
> > Best regards
> > Mr. Cucumber
> > (fresh and without any herbicides)
> >
> >
> >
> > -------- Original-Nachricht --------
> > > Datum: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 23:44:51 -0300
> > > Von: "Sebastian Sastre" <ssastre at seaswork.com>
> > > An: "\'Seaside - general discussion\'"
> > <seaside at lists.squeakfoundation.org>
> > > Betreff: RE: [Seaside] A new critical blog discussing
> > Seaside - now concreteproposals
> >
> > > > @Sebastian: If you value an argument from a person who's name
> > > > you know higher because just of that, pardonnez-moi, je
> > > > m'excuse, but this would a clear sign of incompetence.
> > > >
> > > Well you clearily didn't get it. I've anticipated an ad hominem
> > > contra-agumentation and that's why I've ended my response
> > clarifiying "I
> > > consider good critics as precious".
> > > If you read carefully you'll see I didn't say anything
> > about who make the
> > > critics.
> > > But instead of that you've decided to put yourself in the
> > position of
> > > calling me
> > > something like "an incompetent signaler" for no reason from
> > an annonymous
> > > position.
> > >
> > > > > leaded by whom?
> > > > Only led by arguments!
> > > >
> > > Please explain how that statement could be possibly be talking about
> > > leadership
> > > wisdom?
> > > If for some reason you still think that you can convert
> > anyone just by
> > > saying
> > > that respond with real life examples of succesful, healthy
> > and wealth
> > > comunities
> > > created from ideas supported by annonymous leaders. I'll be
> > all ears.
> > >
> > > > This is also another reason why I will stay anonymous. I want
> > > > to improve the subject and not gain personal respect by some
> > > > community (as Thorsten proposed and wrote that this is a
> > > > prerequisite to be taken seriously). Forget it!
> > > >
> > > If you pretend to seduce for colaboration try harder. Play teamwork.
> > > That's my
> > > whole point. Showing off annonymous modesty will not even be near to
> > > compensate
> > > the damage your attitude is making to the Seaside brand.
> > > Randal answered you with wise questions:
> > > "- Do you want Seaside to succeed?
> > > - Or do you just want to point out that Seaside has failed
> > you, without
> > > actually having tried to help Seaside?"
> > > I'd add:
> > > - Do you like to be another success story by using seaside?
> > > - If that happens are you willing to share moral credits?
> > > Your current attitude is telling here that you don't
> > recognise the efforts
> > > that
> > > are being invested in Seaside. Also your attitude is
> > telling here that not
> > > only
> > > you are not recognising the efforts but you are also taking actions
> > > against
> > > those efforts by talking with intense anger in a public
> > list and blogging
> > > about
> > > that in that tone. All that because you decided to react
> > like that because
> > > you
> > > find minor inconveniences in a fantastically productive
> > machine called
> > > Seaside.
> > > I think you are pain for your own reasons and you didn't make your
> > > homework to
> > > let the water go under the bridge and move on the progress line in
> > > teamwork.
> > > Think about your competence on that and if you found any
> > 'bug' do what a
> > > smalltaker knows that works: do something about it and find
> > out how to fix
> > > that.
> > >
> > > You know.. this is an open comunity based on volunteerism.
> > You can show us
> > > you
> > > understamd that with several signals. For instance by stopping the
> > > corporativistic dictatoship talking. And specially the intolerance
> > > talking. If
> > > you won't then just reserve that for the internal part of
> > your cranium
> > > and/or
> > > your poor subordinates. It is not only near to be helping
> > you to seduce
> > > not one
> > > volunteer but is also letting you in the position of a
> > troll. I think
> > > that's the
> > > real reason of your annonymousity: you have fear about the
> > reaction of the
> > > comunity will burn your reputation as a contributor to seaside.
> > > That's because you can't inpire anything valuable with this
> > actions you've
> > > made.
> > > Put that toghether with the dictatorship talk and you have
> > a perfect lack
> > > of
> > > leadership know how.
> > > That's sad man. Really. Whoever you are, review that for
> > your own good.
> > >
> > >
> > > > Either people believe in my arguments and want to profit from
> > > > my very comprehensive experience - or not. In the latter case
> > > > we will continue in our own style as we did in the past.
> > Nothing lost.
> > > >
> > > > Or I might find some people who are willing to jump onto our
> > > > boat and travel with us, because we share the same believes
> > > > and goals. In this case we would just subclass (as we already
> > > > did in many cases) where major changes are wanted and that's it!
> > > >
> > > Some people that will never found you because you're
> > annonymous right? if
> > > you're
> > > not kidding then you really should fire the marketer of the
> > campaign of
> > > your
> > > cause right now.
> > >
> > > > Seaside is too important for us to either forget about it or
> > > > to live with - sorry for my openess - this horrible lausy
> > > > amateurish and undocumented code of Release 2.8. This is
> > > > unacceptable for us to build products upon.
> > > >
> > > And who is obligating you to do it in the first place?
> > >
> > >
> > > > These authors of Seaside (whom I don't know) really had some
> > > > crazy ideas!
> > > >
> > > > Just remember this f... (4-letter word left out with respect
> > > > to those who believe in PC)stupid idiotic url path "/Seaside/do".
> > > >
> > > > What a crazy idea!
> > > >
> > > > It took us several days in the beginning to get this rubbish
> > > > out! It was done in such a fancy way that was really
> > > > difficult for somebody not (yet) knowing the system. And
> > > > there were many complains about that here on the list.
> > > >
> > > > What an idiotic and unrealistic idea! And why so badly
> > implemented.
> > > >
> > > You are just yelling. You are pointless here. Stop trolling, present
> > > arguments
> > > as a real person and proposals if you want attention from
> > adult people.
> > >
> > > > Now, you can't expect me to have respect for people doing
> > > > such a bullshit! And my expectation from life experience***
> > > > was that these people would be immune to advice. This is why
> > > > I chose the public block to discuss improvements outside this
> > > > "social community" here!
> > > >
> > > Due to your previous contributions I don't think people
> > here will miss
> > > you.
> > > Differently from great leaders you are not making for the community
> > > anything to
> > > be missed so...
> > >
> > > > Therefore, don't expect me to participate here too
> > > > frequently. I have no time for such discussions. I want to
> > > > get my project moving and that means improving Seaside.
> > > >
> > > > Everybody is welcome to join - and I will be most eager and
> > > > happy to learn from other people's experiences and follow
> > > > their advice. But now on this previous low-level of "Seaside
> > > > standards". Non, merci!
> > > >
> > > Remember what you've done. The attitude you presented here
> > by doing this
> > > is
> > > contradicting any welcoming not by the content but just by
> > the sad way you
> > > did
> > > it.
> > > Go ahed, best success. Contract better marketing campaigns
> > for the future
> > > sebastian
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > seaside mailing list
> > > seaside at lists.squeakfoundation.org
> > > http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside
> >
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>
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