[Seaside] Comparison of Aida/Web, Seaside and Iliad web frameworks

H. Hirzel hannes.hirzel at gmail.com
Wed Jun 22 14:56:23 UTC 2011

Hello to all again

On 6/22/11, Johan Brichau <johan at inceptive.be> wrote:
> Hey everyone,
> On 22 Jun 2011, at 06:29, Michael Haupt wrote:
>> Consider this a scientific project. An emotion-free attitude helps. :-)
> A yes/no feature-wise comparison is probably too simple for comparing
> sophisticated web frameworks.
> Skimming through the feature list, I have the same reactions that others
> have because some features are just not well defined and others are
> immediately clear to be filled-out wrong for Seaside. Ramon named some of
> these.
> And just to be clear: it's not an emotional reaction. I like the initiative
> because I would like to know more about Iliad and Aida too.

I do not know about Aida and Iliad.

> For building Yesplan, Seaside is a great framework because it offers a good
> level of abstraction (including over techniques like ajax - via jQuery)
> while at the same time it offers all the flexibility to implement complex
> (e.g. non-standard) ways of interacting with the web application. I can
> imagine that having more techniques and functionality "under the hood" (like
> standard widgets or the 'tab enter' that was mentioned) seems like a
> productivity improvement, but in my experience, such "standard components"
> hardly ever apply in more complex situations. Instead, if you have a
> flexible environment that offers just that right level of abstraction, you
> can build really complex applications.

Yes, this is what I like about Seaside.
And at the same time I do not like it because to build a simple
application is an effort. And energy is wasted with doing
infrastructure things ....

People have to learn Smalltalk and in addition a framework which is
highly abstract.
This is find if you already know Smalltalk and have done projects.

> I guess my bottomline is that feature comparisons tend to miss the
> importance of the basic design rationale of a framework: level of
> abstraction, flexibility, extensibility, etc..
> I'm not saying that Iliad or aida do bad at those points, just that an
> exhaustive feature comparison misses that completely.

Yes, there tabular comparison has it's weakness, but it is a good
start. Otherwise we would not have this good discussion.

However not all items of course have the same weight.

One might try to grasp the conceptual elements with the features you mention

- level of abstraction,
- flexibility
- extensibility

And then just a text comment for each of these.

> For comparing, it would be really good to have the same application written
> in the three frameworks by experts and have the experts compare them. Hey,
> if I find the time (oeps) I would even love to help out on that one.

That would in fact be ideal. Or maybe two.

A CRUD type of application and one where Seaside shines.....

Another thing I was not aware that Aida includes a user role rights
management system out of the box.
Is there a plugin / library for Seaside which does the same.

Actually for the comparison it does not matter so much if things like
this come "bundeled" with the framework or if I have to load it as a
separate plugin.

So the aim is to have a framework to build on -- regardless if it a
one stop installation or if I have to load different components


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