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<P><FONT SIZE=2>Ah, but widgets are different from components. Widget may be a date picker and component may be a login prompt. I'm all for having widgets so long as their markup is well designed not to interfere outright with peoples work, but I can't see components being general enough to be useful, those you build up yourself as pieces of your application.<BR>
<BR>
Cheers!<BR>
<BR>
-Boris (via BlackBerry)<BR>
<BR>
----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: seaside-bounces@lists.squeakfoundation.org <seaside-bounces@lists.squeakfoundation.org><BR>
To: Seaside - general discussion <seaside@lists.squeakfoundation.org><BR>
Sent: Thu Mar 06 08:52:52 2008<BR>
Subject: Re: [Seaside] Design of WAComponent(s)<BR>
<BR>
Stephane,<BR>
<BR>
thank you for getting my point. ;-)<BR>
<BR>
All,<BR>
<BR>
I found the various objectives for Seaside hiding behind the answers very<BR>
interesting.<BR>
<BR>
No offense please but some answers show a lack of appreciation for the users<BR>
of Seaside. If you want to grow the users base of Seaside, you need to<BR>
answer the question of Microsoft. If you dont, it will remain a great tool<BR>
from specialists for specialists. And fade in oblivion eventually.<BR>
<BR>
Let me get some points about my objectives straight (because some jumped to<BR>
conclusions).<BR>
<BR>
1. I do not look at a "one-framework-fits-it-all" approach. I know the<BR>
limitations of a pluggable design for components. It is extremely hard!<BR>
(designing Smalltalk applications for 21 years should qualify me to say<BR>
that) Particularly the mixing of structure, presentation and interactivity<BR>
in one XHTML structure limits the configuration choices for a general<BR>
framework alot. (but I see a value in getting there half way)<BR>
2. I agree that the core should be small and needs some cleanup (and<BR>
commenting please).<BR>
<BR>
Having said that, please think about this statement of Stephane for a<BR>
minute:<BR>
<BR>
> I do not have the skills and time of lukas to create widgets from scratch.<BR>
> But I imagine that I should be able to reuse them.<BR>
<BR>
Chapeau! That *IS* the main point. Those non-specialist that might be<BR>
attracted to Seaside and Smalltalk are very likely not fluent in the details<BR>
of XHTML, Java-script and AJAX. Asking them to create new components from<BR>
the given examples will end in bad copy&paste programming.<BR>
<BR>
One interesting point is the size or specialization of predefined<BR>
components. A login component is indeed not very interesting for a<BR>
predefined component. Individual widgets that need to be pieced together<BR>
from primitive HTML and AJAX elements are much more promising. These<BR>
*expected* elements for UI design are pretty much standard and hence open<BR>
for a standard implementation. I shoot for 80:20. I like to catch 80% of the<BR>
standard widgets and components and let 20% be custom implementations.<BR>
<BR>
Andreas<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Am 06.03.2008 17:21 Uhr schrieb "stephane ducasse" unter<BR>
<stephane.ducasse@free.fr>:<BR>
<BR>
> Hi sebastian<BR>
><BR>
> I still see the point of andreas.<BR>
> I would love to have a usable report widget in which I can plug other<BR>
> components.<BR>
> I already sent that a while back but once I show Seaside to a guy at<BR>
> microsoft.<BR>
> He was impressed then after 3 min he asked me how many widgets are<BR>
> ready to use.<BR>
> And he was right.<BR>
><BR>
> There are no incompatibilities between seaside as it is now and a cool<BR>
> widgets set.<BR>
> Having a cool widgets set with basic but fully working widgets would<BR>
> be a big plus: we could<BR>
> prototype even faster our applications. I do not have the skills and<BR>
> time of lukas<BR>
> to create widgets from scratch. But I imagine that I should be able to<BR>
> reuse them.<BR>
><BR>
> Stef<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> On Mar 6, 2008, at 5:10 PM, Sebastian Sastre wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>>> -----Mensaje original-----<BR>
>>> De: seaside-bounces@lists.squeakfoundation.org<BR>
>>> [<A HREF="mailto:seaside-bounces@lists.squeakfoundation.org">mailto:seaside-bounces@lists.squeakfoundation.org</A>] En nombre<BR>
>>> de Philippe Marschall<BR>
>>> Enviado el: Miércoles, 05 de Marzo de 2008 17:25<BR>
>>> Para: Seaside - general discussion<BR>
>>> Asunto: Re: [Seaside] Design of WAComponent(s)<BR>
>>><BR>
>>> 2008/3/5, Andreas Tönne <atoenne@cincom.com>:<BR>
>>>> ....<BR>
>>><BR>
>>> I think the main point to understand here is that the components that<BR>
>>> come with Seaside are not a component library or even a component<BR>
>>> framework. They are simple stand alone components. They are not made<BR>
>>> with reusabilty, configurabitlity or customyzability in mind. They<BR>
>>> are<BR>
>>> focused on KISS and "getting the job done" and mostly for use Seaside<BR>
>>> itself. They will get you started fast but at one point sooner rather<BR>
>>> than later you will hit their limits. That's ok, they're not supposed<BR>
>>> to be the "be all, end all".<BR>
>>><BR>
>>> The points you made IMHO apply only if you want to build a component<BR>
>>> library or even component framework. That should be an addon protect<BR>
>>> and has no place in Seaside-Core. Honestly I have my doubts if such a<BR>
>>> such thing could ever work given the very special needs of users<BR>
>>> concerning not only functionality but also mark up.<BR>
>>><BR>
>>> Cheers<BR>
>>> Philippe<BR>
>>><BR>
>><BR>
>> Quoting you:<BR>
>> "...They are not made with reusabilty, configurabitlity or<BR>
>> customyzability in mind..."<BR>
>><BR>
>> Quoting Seaside site:<BR>
>> "About<BR>
>> Seaside provides a layered set of abstractions over HTTP and HTML<BR>
>> that let you build highly interactive web applications quickly,<BR>
>> reusably and maintainably.<BR>
>> ..."<BR>
>><BR>
>> Note that *reusably* is the second *bold* word after quickly.<BR>
>><BR>
>> And also (from same source):<BR>
>> "...Embedded components. Stop thinking a whole page at a time;<BR>
>> Seaside lets you build your UI as a tree of individual, stateful<BR>
>> component objects, each encapsulating a small part of a page. Often,<BR>
>> these can be used over and over again, within and between<BR>
>> applications - nearly every application, for example, needs a way to<BR>
>> present a batched list of search results, or a table with sortable<BR>
>> columns, and Seaside includes components for these out the box..."<BR>
>><BR>
>> So?<BR>
>><BR>
>> Sebastian<BR>
>><BR>
>> _______________________________________________<BR>
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>><BR>
><BR>
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