<div dir="ltr">I do want to add that I was sitting in the audience and there was a lot of interest and discussion about what is happening with Maglev and the benefits that come with tools such as GemStone/S. I think people were not exactly sure of the process for building a solution using Seaside; this was, of course, a poor format for learning Seaside because there was no time for James to explain and type at the same time and stop for questions. Also, it is a very different set of tools and development process. But, when I started telling them that persistence just "is" and you don't have to do what I did earlier that day in my day job, that is, trying to marshall complex ruby objects into SQL, then their ears perked up. With commentary from Randal and comments from Monty, I think people learned a bunch. There were definitely some people that left with a whole new way of looking at the world. <br>
<br>James, I thought you did a great job, and I was really honored that you would be a part of the competition. I hope you were able to have fun and enjoy it, or at least can be relieved it is now over.<br><br>Next year perhaps we'll do what you've all suggested: we can ask people to come with a completed application and then say "Now you have twenty minutes to make these five changes" and really let people see the power of Seaside that comes when you refactor an existing application. I say that as a impartial observer and not as an official organizer of the event of course!<br>
<br>Chris<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Jul 24, 2008 at 9:10 PM, James Foster <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:Smalltalk@jgfoster.net">Smalltalk@jgfoster.net</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
<div class="Ih2E3d">On Jul 24, 2008, at 5:54 PM, Ramon Leon wrote:<br>
<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
<br>
And if you were invited to a Ruby event and asked whether Seaside/<br>
Magritte could support JavaScript, would you tell them that<br>
they were wrong for asking?<br>
<br>
James<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
Nope, but I wouldn't be showing them Magritte either, that's a mistake, I'd<br>
be showing them Seaside and Scriptaculous. Magritte is complex in the same<br>
way Glorp is complex, building all those metadata descriptions is complex<br>
and error prone and takes way too much time to use in a demo, especially a<br>
time limited one. Whipping up something in raw Seaside would be much faster<br>
unless you've rigged up some code generators to write the mappings<br>
automatically for you.<br>
</blockquote>
<br></div>
I did try it both ways and building the editor by hand seemed to be more lines of code and I thought I'd go for something that might seem more familiar for the domain definition. Also, since I was building one component by hand trying the other as meta data seemed like reasonable variety. On the other hand, since I don't consider the whole experience a great success I certainly won't insist that I made the right choice.<div class="Ih2E3d">
<br>
<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
Rails guys are accustomed to ActiveRecord and scaffolding which bootstraps<br>
them up to a running system very quickly using code generation and a<br>
generate and modify philosophy (this is also how they learn Rails).<br>
Gemstone might eliminate the need for ActiveRecord, but Magritte is not at<br>
all equivalent to scaffolding. Scaffolding is much easier to hack and<br>
customize because it's not a framework, it's just a bunch of generated form<br>
template code. To compete against Rails in a time limited demo, you'll need<br>
something like a scaffolder, or a form builder you have a very deep<br>
knowledge of so it can be highly customized on the fly. To sell newbs, you<br>
need the scaffolder, because scaffolding code is an excellent way to teach<br>
them how to write Seaside code, they don't need yet another framework<br>
(Magritte) to learn.<br>
</blockquote>
<br></div>
Agreed. Maybe next time I'll channel the better-known "James" and try a demo of Web Velocity!<div class="Ih2E3d"><br>
<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
Ramon Leon<br>
<a href="http://onsmalltalk.com" target="_blank">http://onsmalltalk.com</a><br>
</blockquote>
<br></div><font color="#888888">
James Foster</font><div><div></div><div class="Wj3C7c"><br>
<br>
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