<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN">
<html>
<head>
<meta content="text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1"
http-equiv="Content-Type">
</head>
<body bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000">
<font face="Georgia">Hmm... does it necessarily take double the
maintenance or can Seaside bring the scale factor closer to 1x
than 2x?<br>
<br>
General question: how can one take a look at the code behind the
site? Is that downloadable somethere? Perhaps this would provide
the leverage for exploring alternate solutions.<br>
<br>
Cheers,<br>
Bob<br>
</font><br>
On 2/23/11 9:54 AM, Boris Popov, DeepCove Labs wrote:
<blockquote
cite="mid:CBE458BB46D12C48A467980CEDA34121040B5875@Pondo.yvr.png"
type="cite">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;
charset=ISO-8859-1">
<meta name="Generator" content="Microsoft Word 14 (filtered
medium)">
<!--[if !mso]><style>v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
.shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
</style><![endif]-->
<style><!--
/* Font Definitions */
@font-face
{font-family:"Cambria Math";
panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:Calibri;
panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:Tahoma;
panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:Consolas;
panose-1:2 11 6 9 2 2 4 3 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:Georgia;
panose-1:2 4 5 2 5 4 5 2 3 3;}
/* Style Definitions */
p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal
{margin:0in;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";
color:black;}
a:link, span.MsoHyperlink
{mso-style-priority:99;
color:blue;
text-decoration:underline;}
a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed
{mso-style-priority:99;
color:purple;
text-decoration:underline;}
p
{mso-style-priority:99;
mso-margin-top-alt:auto;
margin-right:0in;
mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:0in;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";
color:black;}
pre
{mso-style-priority:99;
mso-style-link:"HTML Preformatted Char";
margin:0in;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Courier New";
color:black;}
p.MsoAcetate, li.MsoAcetate, div.MsoAcetate
{mso-style-priority:99;
mso-style-link:"Balloon Text Char";
margin:0in;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
font-size:8.0pt;
font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";
color:black;}
span.HTMLPreformattedChar
{mso-style-name:"HTML Preformatted Char";
mso-style-priority:99;
mso-style-link:"HTML Preformatted";
font-family:Consolas;
color:black;}
span.BalloonTextChar
{mso-style-name:"Balloon Text Char";
mso-style-priority:99;
mso-style-link:"Balloon Text";
font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";
color:black;}
span.ecxapple-style-span
{mso-style-name:ecxapple-style-span;}
span.EmailStyle23
{mso-style-type:personal;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D;}
span.EmailStyle24
{mso-style-type:personal-reply;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D;}
.MsoChpDefault
{mso-style-type:export-only;
font-size:10.0pt;}
@page WordSection1
{size:8.5in 11.0in;
margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;}
div.WordSection1
{page:WordSection1;}
--></style><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<o:shapedefaults v:ext="edit" spidmax="1026" />
</xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<o:shapelayout v:ext="edit">
<o:idmap v:ext="edit" data="1" />
</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]-->
<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31,
73, 125);">I have to say it’s uncommon to have sites present
multiple treatments and letting users choose one they prefer
as it leads to double the maintenance and all kinds of other
issues. If the structure of the site is to your
satisfaction, you can easily adjust the look of it with
existing extensions or custom stylesheet in your browser.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31,
73, 125);"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31,
73, 125);">-Boris<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31,
73, 125);"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style="border-right: medium none; border-width: 1pt
medium medium; border-style: solid none none; border-color:
rgb(181, 196, 223) -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color;
padding: 3pt 0in 0in;">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size: 10pt;
font-family:
"Tahoma","sans-serif"; color:
windowtext;">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:
10pt; font-family:
"Tahoma","sans-serif"; color:
windowtext;"> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:seaside-bounces@lists.squeakfoundation.org">seaside-bounces@lists.squeakfoundation.org</a>
[<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:seaside-bounces@lists.squeakfoundation.org">mailto:seaside-bounces@lists.squeakfoundation.org</a>] <b>On
Behalf Of </b>Bob Arning<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, February 23, 2011 9:51 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:seaside@lists.squeakfoundation.org">seaside@lists.squeakfoundation.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Seaside] website
maintenance/feedback?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:
"Georgia","serif";">Both.<br>
<br>
Different components, e.g., might support linear vs.
hypertext. I often want to know whether I've read everything
available (like a book) and that can be quite hard when the
data is in some fairly complex tree structure. So, if there
are N possible pages on the site, can they be viewed either
as a book</span> (perhaps chunked into chapters, but with a
clear first and last) or as a tree of arbitrary depth and
cross/cyclical linking.<br>
<br>
Different visuals: as your email and mine implicitly
illustrate, some folks like serifs, some do not. Can a site
make that accommodation in a pleasing way?<br>
<br>
Cheers,<br>
Bob<br>
<br>
On 2/23/11 9:38 AM, Boris Popov, DeepCove Labs wrote: <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif";">Bob,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif";"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif";">Could you
clarify what you mean by different views of the same
information? Different components or simply different visual
treatment?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif";"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif";">-Boris</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif";"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div style="border-right: medium none; border-width: 1pt
medium medium; border-style: solid none none; padding: 3pt
0in 0in; border-color: -moz-use-text-color;">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size: 10pt;
font-family:
"Tahoma","sans-serif"; color:
windowtext;">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:
10pt; font-family:
"Tahoma","sans-serif"; color:
windowtext;"> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:seaside-bounces@lists.squeakfoundation.org">seaside-bounces@lists.squeakfoundation.org</a>
[<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:seaside-bounces@lists.squeakfoundation.org">mailto:seaside-bounces@lists.squeakfoundation.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Bob Arning<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, February 23, 2011 9:35 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:seaside@lists.squeakfoundation.org">seaside@lists.squeakfoundation.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Seaside] website
maintenance/feedback?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:
"Georgia","serif";">One question to ask
is whether the site needs "a" new design or several. I am of
a minority less enamored with design/structure and more
interested in full understanding. Would Seaside make it
possible to support two radically different views of the
same information without needing to do twice the work?<br>
<br>
Cheers,<br>
Bob<br>
<br>
P.S. I saw this today in a totally different context, but it
seems applicable here as well:<br>
<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.ted.com/talks/malcolm_gladwell_on_spaghetti_sauce.html">http://www.ted.com/talks/malcolm_gladwell_on_spaghetti_sauce.html</a><br>
<br>
<br>
</span><br>
On 2/23/11 9:18 AM, Robert Sirois wrote: <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">I like where this conversation is going :p
Maybe what we really need is to get some ideas out there, put
some volunteers in charge, and have a little web get-together
and discuss it? <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 12pt;">RS<o:p></o:p></p>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: center;"
align="center">
<hr align="center" size="2" width="100%"></div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 12pt;">From: <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:sebastian@flowingconcept.com">sebastian@flowingconcept.com</a><br>
Subject: Re: [Seaside] website maintenance/feedback?<br>
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2011 10:53:17 -0300<br>
To: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:seaside@lists.squeakfoundation.org">seaside@lists.squeakfoundation.org</a><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">"...<span class="ecxapple-style-span"><span
style="font-family:
"Tahoma","sans-serif";">As I have
previously mentioned, the website needs a better
design...</span></span>"<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">All...<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">I not only agree with that, I'm afraid
"the hole is deeper".<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Actually our community in general needs
better branding so marketing so copywriting so design.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Of course that means a website with
better design. But the issue is more deep than retouching
the website.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Avi's attitude is the kind of thing
that creates an opportunity for Seaside.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">It could be a chance to start showing
people that smalltalkers don't ignore design (and I don't
mean in theory).<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">But the reality is that not much of a
difference will happen unless we boldly embrace design
from the core (code) to the skin (UI).<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Avi... <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">if you have screenshots to show that's
okay but be prepared for the next thing: people will start
to make bold opinions about it (thinking they know what
they're talking about even if they aren't designers) and
having feedback is okay but, as you probably know,
committees trying to design horses end up delivering
giraffes because democratically they decided they're
"improved"<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">If you think you can deal with that and
make us look better, they I'm curious already<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://twitter.com/#%21/sebastianconcpt"
target="_blank">sebastian</a><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">o/<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Feb 23, 2011, at 9:59 AM, Avi
Shefi wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;">
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 12pt;"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family:
"Tahoma","sans-serif"; color:
rgb(51, 0, 51);">Julian,<br>
I'm willing to manage the website.<br>
Lately I have been working on a new design mockup
for the Seaside website. As I have previously
mentioned, the website needs a better design. Hope
I'll get to it over the following week and send some
screenshots of it.<br>
<br>
Regardless of the issue, I have new ideas for
Seaside to which I will dedicate some time after I
finish some of the currently open issues.<br>
<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
Avi.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Wed, Feb 23, 2011 at 1:40 PM,
Julian Fitzell <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:jfitzell@gmail.com">jfitzell@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">I think I've asked before, but
this is a good time to ask again. Is<br>
there anyone in the community who would be willing
to volunteer their<br>
services as "webmaster"? It doesn't necessarily have
to involve a lot<br>
of work (though I'd love someone to take on the
challenge of cleaning<br>
up the site organization), but mostly having
responsibility for making<br>
sure these kinds of comments don't get dropped
(filing an issue if<br>
appropriate) and that *someone* is doing something
about them. We have<br>
a number of people in the community with permissions
to update the<br>
site, so some of the effort could just involve
delegation to them and<br>
then chasing them up.<br>
<span style="color: rgb(136, 136, 136);"><br>
Julian</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
On Wed, Feb 23, 2011 at 10:09 AM, Andrew Buchan
<<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:andyhasit@gmail.com">andyhasit@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
> Hello,<br>
><br>
> I'm starting to use seaside, and finding
most of what I need, but have<br>
> noticed something on the website that needs
fixed, not sure where to<br>
> send this to as there is no "webmaster
contact" bit, so thought I'd<br>
> post it here:<br>
><br>
> -------------------<br>
><br>
> On page: "<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.seaside.st/documentation"
target="_blank">http://www.seaside.st/documentation</a>"
the menu link to<br>
> "applications" brings you to the page on
"debugging"...<br>
><br>
> Also, the pages talking about seaside 3.0:<br>
><br>
> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.seaside.st/community/development/seaside30"
target="_blank">http://www.seaside.st/community/development/seaside30</a><br>
> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.seaside.st/seaside30"
target="_blank">http://www.seaside.st/seaside30</a><br>
><br>
> Could both do with being dated, especially
as Seaside is one of those<br>
> things that people might try, leave, and
come back to in a few months<br>
> to see if anything has changed, and won't
remember what version they<br>
> downloaded.<br>
><br>
> -------------------<br>
>
_______________________________________________<br>
> seaside mailing list<br>
> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:seaside@lists.squeakfoundation.org">seaside@lists.squeakfoundation.org</a><br>
> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside"
target="_blank">http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside</a><br>
><br>
_______________________________________________<br>
seaside mailing list<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:seaside@lists.squeakfoundation.org">seaside@lists.squeakfoundation.org</a><br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside"
target="_blank">http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside</a><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal">_______________________________________________<br>
seaside mailing list<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:seaside@lists.squeakfoundation.org">seaside@lists.squeakfoundation.org</a><br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside">http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside</a><o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
<br>
_______________________________________________ seaside
mailing list <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:seaside@lists.squeakfoundation.org">seaside@lists.squeakfoundation.org</a>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside">http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside</a><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>seaside mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:seaside@lists.squeakfoundation.org">seaside@lists.squeakfoundation.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside">http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>seaside mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:seaside@lists.squeakfoundation.org">seaside@lists.squeakfoundation.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside">http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
</div>
<pre wrap="">
<fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
_______________________________________________
seaside mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:seaside@lists.squeakfoundation.org">seaside@lists.squeakfoundation.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside">http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
</body>
</html>