Joachim writes:

> Right... partially. It's OK to ask whether something that's not *that*
far away could be included.
Of course, one can debate whether empowering Squeak for commercial use
is a major effort, a minor one, or whether it is at all impossible. But
these are issues for a debate, not something that can be dismissed in
such an off-hand manner.

Absolutely, but I didn't dismiss anything in an off-hand manner.  My first 
replies (and those of others) were quite substantive.  Indeed, some have 
replied with actual source code and a framework for polishing it.  To the 
contrary, I was responding to the insistance by someone suggesting that the 
term "toy" was appropriate.

>> VB is easy and cheap to acquire.

>Now you're believing too much in what M$ promises.

Not me.  I haven't any sense or belief that VB is a credible framework for 
serious applications.

>> I can't get VB to do anything non-trivial without serious effort and
>> would never use it as a tool of choice, but that's strictly a matter
>> of taste.

>NOT. The decision for or against a tool such as VB has very clear-cut
consequences, and so you need not rely on such a vague guideline as
personal taste.

Agreed.  I was trying to be polite, as well as acknowledge that I may not be 
in the best position to objectively evaluate why VB would be a mistake/boon to 
a particular project.

>> No, take it from the author of several best-selling commercial games
>> -- Squeak is no toy.  The potential is unlimited.  And, compared to
>> working in, say, MPW or codewarrior tX-Mozilla-Status: 0009there is
>> much to be said for Squeaking in lieu of building anything from
>> scratch.

>Right. Now where do I get the how-tos, tips, and tricks of the trade how
to do that?

Right here.  And it would be cool if you'd contribute even more of your own.  
This thread is a great example, which has already generated serious 
alternatives for some.

We need to be patient, and we need to be proactive.  Squeak is not yet in a 
"they will come" position -- it still has to be built.  But its wonderfully 
put together as is.  Much of the problem is the lack of documentation, and 
that's where the community can help -- we who are using it can start 
contributing what we find, whether as informal e-mails to the listserv, or 
more serious contributions to the system.  Let's do it!