On Mon, 5 Jun 2000, Stefan Matthias Aust wrote:

> At 00:35 04.06.00 +0300, danielv at netvision.net.il wrote:
> > > IMHO the core problem is the still monolithic all-inclusive image that is
> > > [create a "standard" base one can expect]
> >Seems to me Squeak is too dynamic for that, and so by intention.
> 
> Well, this describes the current situation, but I don't know whether I like 
> it.  Remembering what Andrew Green said in another posting (talking about 
> Python and Squeak), he stated that Squeak is mainly a research tool, not a 
> development tool.  If he's true, I dislike that fact.  For me, it's a 
> development tool, if not, I'll have to choose some other language (or try 

To be more precise, it's *both* a research and a development tool, where
is Python is almost exclusively, and primarily directed at being, a
development tool. The Python community, while supporting *some*
computing/language research efforts, is overall more hostile to pure
experimentation (or, at least, more unwelcoming). "Python central" even
more so. Research efforts, even with obvious practical benefits, have to
justify themselves a lot more, and "Python central" is a lot less focused
on research.

However, this doesn't entail that Squeak need engage in "reverse
hostility" ;) Striking a good balance between interests is what we're all
groping toward. And, I think, we see progress, though it will naturally be
slower than exclusive focus on one side or the other could produce. (And
if someone *wants* such a beast, forking makes *good* sense; I would have
no objections, and quite a bit of interest in, a shrink or "click" wrapped
Squeak, perhaps targeted toward a Dolphin like space, but maybe for the
Mac, etc. Indeed, it could be MVC focused, though *some* native window
support would be cool. If MVC focused, I'd like to see, say, some of STPs
stuff included (display lists, etc.), and I could see other extensions.)

(Indeed, one day it may make sense to have one or more forks. I would
prefer that they clearly share and be built upon the same base, but that's
not strictly necessary.)

Cheers,
Bijan Parsia.

P.S. Bjarne asked me to add that 1) he appreciates your efforts toward
Squawk, and is glad to name you one of the "Squawkward", and 2) he feels
very strongly that there must be more unity in the community and thinks
Squawk can be that unifying factor--"The Squeak fork that *everybody*
hates" is his motto ;) Of course, *his* solution to the
research/development divide is to make each equally painful. Bjarne is a
a fair, if somewhat sadistic, fellow!

P.P.S. I take the research/development distinction as somewhat, perhaps
mostly, artificial, but clear enough to give a reasonable framework for
abstract discussion of various concerns.