Smalltalk & Squeak featured on Slashdot
Andrew C. Greenberg
werdna at mucow.com
Sun Apr 22 03:03:42 UTC 2001
Despite the righteous indignation manifest here at my apparent lack of
civility, I'll stand by my remarks. (I'll also stand on my netrep for
civility). To the extent that I appear upset, you may take it that I am.
Forking an open source project is not a civil thing. It is almost
unanimously held by most of the leaders in open source movements
(Perens, Stallman and Raymond) that a fork, an inherently divisive
activity, requires a compelling reason. The ordinary course of conduct
in an open source project is to "just do it." Make a contribution and
share it with the community. The present, "I'm going leave and take
your ball with me" attitude I have seen is repugnant to me, but that I
have discussed on the merits, in this forum. Again and again.
A corollary of this proposition is that agitating for a fork (rather
than simply doing it), without substantial consensus, is uncivil. In
most projects, wannabe forkers are treated accordingly, reminded of the
nettiquette of what they are doing, occasionally reminded of the "just
do it" open source ethics and ultimately asked to cease and desist.
This being a far more rarified community, that isn't necessary. But
this particular dispute
Why I am upset at Paul's remarks is that they pushed a button that
should never be raised, suggesting that the fork was necessitated by
some acts or forebearance of Alan Kay and his extraordinary research
group at Disney R&D. This is this last straw. Not the continual
threats about forks (I will spare the flame-baiting by quoting the
archives -- this is apparent to anyone who has lived here for any length
of time). Not the Squeak-baiting, some justified, some not. Some
petty, some worthy.
Why I am upset is the suggestion that there is ANY ONUS AT ALL upon
Squeak Central to do anything. It is, in fact, the most ungrateful and
obnoxious conduct I have ever seen in the open source community. It is
outrageous, regardless of the merits of any claim to a need for a fork
(which I have previously argued on the merits to be ludicrous). Here's
why:
1) These guys have performed magic, providing an outstanding, fast and
portable Squeak system, and the basis by which this community has arisen
from virtually the ashes of a dead system -- original Smalltalk-80.
These world-class geniuses and technical wizards deserve nothing less
than our unqualified respect and, at least, reasonable courtesies. [I
do not suggest that this forum devolve into a supplicating crew of
accepting "yes-men." I can think of nothing that would insult our
in-Disney colleagues more than withholding our best thoughts and
efforts.]
2) These guys owe us nothing. This was unselfish, free and wonderful --
they have fought fiercely the politics of both Disney and Apple to make
Squeak available on the terms on which we are getting them. They have
supported the community at length, in many times when the projects were
cross-purpose (or at least did not directly support) with their
research. They do good. We should be greatful. [This is not to say
they shouldn't likewise be greatful for the contributions of the
community, which has developed and fostered well their works to date.]
3) For these reasons, the statement that the "only way to stop the fork
is for SqueakC to make modularity a top priority ASAP (ideally built
from textual source)" is nothing less than petulant. It is uncalled
for. It is uncivil. If a fork happens, it is because those who have
forked couldn't figure out how to work with the community, or because
those who are agitating for the fork can't even do that. It will not be
because of anything that Squeak Central has done or not done.
Look guys, this is open source. Just do it. Fork if you must, but if
you abandon this community, could you take it outside? Or at least
spare us the righteous indignation when people grow upset at the fact
that an unnecessary fork of an open source project is occurring at your
hands.
Aside from being wholly uncivil, I would further raise another practical
problem: this is also precisely the sort of thing that makes companies
like Disney reconsider their involvement in open source projects.
On Saturday, April 21, 2001, at 03:31 PM, Les Tyrrell wrote:
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Paul Fernhout <pdfernhout at kurtz-fernhout.com>
> To: <squeak at cs.uiuc.edu>
> Sent: Saturday, April 21, 2001 9:22 AM
> Subject: Re: Smalltalk & Squeak featured on Slashdot
>
>
>> "Andrew C. Greenberg" wrote:
>>>> The only way to stop the fork is for SqueakC to make modularity
>>>> a top priority ASAP (ideally built from textual source).
>>> Nobody can stop someone who wants to write a fork.
>>> Clearly noone can stop Paul from threatening one.
>>
>> Andrew-
>>
>> I'd appreciate a more precise use of language when you imply for
>> example
>> that I am "positing threats" about a fork.
Paul insisted that a fork is already being undertaken, and that unless
Squeak Central gets its act together, it cannot be stopped. His precise
words are quoted above, and should be understood in its full context.
Further quotes and details simply invite me to participate in a personal
flamefest to which I will not be a party. Suffice it to say that I'll
stand on my remarks.
> I'll second that notion. The thing I find particularly disgusting
> about this whole thing is that I
> actually have known Paul in the past, and found him to be a very
> polite, kind, soft-spoken, and
> considerate person. The way you continually depict him as being either
> threatening or disruptive to
> this community is something that I find appalling. I especially find
> it appalling that anyone who
> brings up the topic of Modularity in Squeak can expect the same sort of
> treatment from you. Some of
> us have been looking at this problem for a long time, and have worked
> mighty hard on our own time
> and without compensation of any kind to find a solution that makes
> sense for Squeak. Kindly
> consider that in the future.
This remark reminds me of discussions of tax cuts. Ok, your taxes are
too high. Well, sir, so are mine.
I think we have all put spit and blood into Squeak. Most of us managed
to find a way to work within and among the community. Most of us have
shared our works, as works in progress and in final form. We have found
ways to make a single, unitary whole out of the community's work. You
may calm yourself in your concerns that you find my criticism
"appalling" as an attack on "anyone who brings up the topic of
Modularity in Squeak." Nonsense. I myself have made comments and
contributions to that end. I don't even disagree with some of the
specific suggestions and remedies that have been proposed. I think a
fork, and the calls for one, however, have been empty on the merits. I
also have seen the comments in defense of them to be silly.
But I don't call for a fork, and I will hold anyone who agitates for a
fork to the same standard that Perens, Stallman and Raymond would hold
them. Count on that.
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