Smalltalk & Squeak featured on Slashdot

Andrew C. Greenberg werdna at mucow.com
Sun Apr 22 03:03:42 UTC 2001


Despite the righteous indignation manifest here at my apparent lack of 
civility, I'll stand by my remarks.  (I'll also stand on my netrep for 
civility).  To the extent that I appear upset, you may take it that I am.

Forking an open source project is not a civil thing.  It is almost 
unanimously held by most of the leaders in open source movements 
(Perens, Stallman and Raymond) that a fork, an inherently divisive 
activity, requires a compelling reason.  The ordinary course of conduct 
in an open source project is to "just do it."  Make a contribution and 
share it with the community.  The present, "I'm going leave and take 
your ball with me" attitude I have seen is repugnant to me, but that I 
have discussed on the merits, in this forum.  Again and again.

A corollary of this proposition is that agitating for a fork (rather 
than simply doing it), without substantial consensus, is uncivil.  In 
most projects, wannabe forkers are treated accordingly, reminded of the 
nettiquette of what they are doing, occasionally reminded of the "just 
do it" open source ethics and ultimately asked to cease and desist.  
This being a far more rarified community, that isn't necessary.  But 
this particular dispute

Why I am upset at Paul's remarks is that they pushed a button that 
should never be raised, suggesting that the fork was necessitated by 
some acts or forebearance of Alan Kay and his extraordinary research 
group at Disney R&D.  This is this last straw.  Not the continual 
threats about forks (I will spare the flame-baiting by quoting the 
archives -- this is apparent to anyone who has lived here for any length 
of time).  Not the Squeak-baiting, some justified, some not.  Some 
petty, some worthy.

Why I am upset is the suggestion that there is ANY ONUS AT ALL upon 
Squeak Central to do anything.  It is, in fact, the most ungrateful and 
obnoxious conduct I have ever seen in the open source community.  It is 
outrageous, regardless of the merits of any claim to a need for a fork 
(which I have previously argued on the merits to be ludicrous).  Here's 
why:

1) These guys have performed magic, providing an outstanding, fast and 
portable Squeak system, and the basis by which this community has arisen 
from virtually the ashes of a dead system -- original Smalltalk-80.  
These world-class geniuses and technical wizards deserve nothing less 
than our unqualified respect and, at least, reasonable courtesies.  [I 
do not suggest that this forum devolve into a supplicating crew of 
accepting "yes-men."  I can think of nothing that would insult our 
in-Disney colleagues more than withholding our best thoughts and 
efforts.]

2) These guys owe us nothing.  This was unselfish, free and wonderful -- 
they have fought fiercely the politics of both Disney and Apple to make 
Squeak available on the terms on which we are getting them.  They have 
supported the community at length, in many times when the projects were 
cross-purpose (or at least did not directly support) with their 
research.  They do good.  We should be greatful.  [This is not to say 
they shouldn't likewise be greatful for the contributions of the 
community, which has developed and fostered well their works to date.]

3) For these reasons, the statement that the "only way to stop the fork 
is for SqueakC to make modularity a top priority ASAP (ideally built 
from textual source)" is nothing less than petulant.  It is uncalled 
for.  It is uncivil.  If a fork happens, it is because those who have 
forked couldn't figure out how to work with the community, or because 
those who are agitating for the fork can't even do that.  It will not be 
because of anything that Squeak Central has done or not done.

Look guys, this is open source.  Just do it.  Fork if you must, but if 
you abandon this community, could you take it outside?  Or at least 
spare us the righteous indignation when people grow upset at the fact 
that an unnecessary fork of an open source project is occurring at your 
hands.

Aside from being wholly uncivil, I would further raise another practical 
problem:  this is also precisely the sort of thing that makes companies 
like Disney reconsider their involvement in open source projects.

On Saturday, April 21, 2001, at 03:31 PM, Les Tyrrell wrote:

>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Paul Fernhout <pdfernhout at kurtz-fernhout.com>
> To: <squeak at cs.uiuc.edu>
> Sent: Saturday, April 21, 2001 9:22 AM
> Subject: Re: Smalltalk & Squeak featured on Slashdot
>
>
>> "Andrew C. Greenberg" wrote:
>>>> The only way to stop the fork is for SqueakC to make modularity
>>>> a top priority ASAP (ideally built from textual source).
>>> Nobody can stop someone who wants to write a fork.
>>> Clearly noone can stop Paul from threatening one.
>>
>> Andrew-
>>
>> I'd appreciate a more precise use of language when you imply for 
>> example
>> that I am "positing threats" about a fork.

Paul insisted that a fork is already being undertaken, and that unless 
Squeak Central gets its act together, it cannot be stopped.  His precise 
words are quoted above, and should be understood in its full context.  
Further quotes and details simply invite me to participate in a personal 
flamefest to which I will not be a party.  Suffice it to say that I'll 
stand on my remarks.

> I'll second that notion.  The thing I find particularly disgusting 
> about this whole thing is that I
> actually have known Paul in the past, and found him to be a very 
> polite, kind, soft-spoken, and
> considerate person.  The way you continually depict him as being either 
> threatening or disruptive to
> this community is something that I find appalling.  I especially find 
> it appalling that anyone who
> brings up the topic of Modularity in Squeak can expect the same sort of 
> treatment from you.  Some of
> us have been looking at this problem for a long time, and have worked 
> mighty hard on our own time
> and without compensation of any kind to find a solution that makes 
> sense for Squeak.  Kindly
> consider that in the future.

This remark reminds me of discussions of tax cuts.  Ok, your taxes are 
too high.  Well, sir, so are mine.

I think we have all put spit and blood into Squeak.  Most of us managed 
to find a way to work within and among the community.  Most of us have 
shared our works, as works in progress and in final form.  We have found 
ways to make a single, unitary whole out of the community's work.  You 
may calm yourself in your concerns that  you find my criticism 
"appalling" as an attack on "anyone who brings up the topic of 
Modularity in Squeak."  Nonsense.  I myself have made comments and 
contributions to that end.  I don't even disagree with some of the 
specific suggestions and remedies that have been proposed.  I think a 
fork, and the calls for one, however, have been empty on the merits.  I 
also have seen the comments in defense of them to be silly.

But I don't call for a fork, and I will hold anyone who agitates for a 
fork to the same standard that Perens, Stallman and Raymond would hold 
them.  Count on that.
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