on 4/1/02 9:10 PM, catonano at a.peluso at fulltrading.it wrote:

> 
> Lunedì, Aprile 1, 2002, alle 01:13 AM, John Hinsley ha scritto:
> 
>> n issue with Squeak is a mind set thing (rather like
>> those who complain about Linux/BSD because it doesn't behave like a
>> Windows
>> application). Someone who approaches with a child's view might play
>> about with
>> the games, with the drumming bunny, and so on first. That way they'd
>> get an
>> idea of what the mouse did, and what the code looked like. I'd not
>> approach a
>> Python interpreter without reading some kind of instruction first
>> (what?!! You
>> mean the indents do something?).
>> 
>> Once you find the source code, it's pretty much straightforward
>> Smalltalk
>> (which may be a little ideosyncratic in this day and age, but is hardly
>> off
>> the wall).
>> 
>> The issue is probably further compounded in that Squeak isn't just an
>> IDE, but
>> a quasi Operating System (it'll be a real OS soon enough) a set of
>> applications, and some source code tools. Furthermore, there are
>> several ways
>> (etoys, MVC, Morphic) in.
> 
> 
> Well I have a debt with Squeak.
> 
> A bit of years ago (Squeak 2.4) I read the bank account tutorial. I was
> a complete beginner in programming.
> 
> I understood. I understood what objects were, I understood message
> sending, attributes and methods.
> 
> I loved it.
> 
> I tested my bank account withdrawing and putting money in.
> 
> Then, I played with a traffic light demo.
> 
> It was INCREDIBLE how immediate it was to turn lights on and off.
> 
> I was not a programmer and never studied math (ancient greek, instead).
> 
> I've been able to make some associations between an article I read about
> the messaging between, ehm, "cellule" in Italian (sorry I haven't got
> the English term for it) made of molecules passing from a cellula to
> another and the right molecule acts on some other molecules inside the
> cellula.
> 
> Some time later I was contracted to work on a java web app made with
> VisualAge.
> 
> I hated the fact that I have to declare the class of an object. String
> string = new String() was really ridiculous.
> 
> But I could work on that app because I had understod with Squeak.
> 
> VisualAge helped me really so much. That's a SmallTalk enviroinment
> applied to Java. I think that's a miracle
> 
> The fact that not everyone recognizes its superiority is a mistery to me
> as the success of Windows and the failing of the Lisp machines.
> 
> Today I don't work in that shop any longer and I saw Project Builder for
> the first time in my life after reading so much about it (I'm a big
> lists lurker)
> 
> I can't use it. I understand what's its paradigm but I can't get it.
> 
> A method is NOT a piece of text.? How can this community be so rigid on
> this?
> 
> ProjectBuilder is considered an "expert" tool.
> 
> Objects in Squeak are living entities. Not so everywhere else. It's so
> sad.
> 
> Now I can't work in java any longer (or until I don't find a decent tool)
> 
> The "expert" programmer I met on my job (40 years old, a degree in math,
> 15 years of experience) didn't like VisualAge because it kept all the
> stuff inside itself and not revealing it.
> 
> "Why not in the filesystem as everyother dev tool?" He asked. He
> preferred Jbuilder (his experience was in Delphi)
> 
> Now, my point. It's a mindset.
> 
> David, I think that if you took a look at PB with no instructions you'd
> get it in a minute. As I did with Squeak.
> 
> As for all the rest, I agree with you, anyhow. I left Squeak because I
> was not able to follow it. File Ins, no docs on how to do things, trick
> discovered casually, etc.  Yes, finding things is difficult, in Squeak.
> And it was a moving target.
> 
> But now I know what SmallTalk is. It's the try to make machines a little
> more similar to human beings instead of trying to make human being more
> similar to machines (Sorry David).
> 
> My 2 cents.
> 
> P.S. Not SmallTalk X neither Eclipse run on MacOsX at now. Anyone can
> suggest me an enviroinmentg I could find nice, knowing what my mindset
> is ?  ;-)  Thanks !!
> 
> 
Try VisualWorks. a X version for the next release VisualWorks& is under
preparation. You can use VW5 non commercial

www.cincom.com

We use use daily besides Squeak

stef