I too agree that having the ability to do what we can and normally do in 
Squeak windows in other/additional OSNative windows would be a great 
feature. I also agree that that feature would be compelling on its own 
and not requiring any interfacing to native UI widgets per se.

I know many/most users like and desire OSNative UI elements they have 
grown accustomed to. I have 4 Macs and 1 Linux machine (mine). My wife 
and children have only used Macs, minus minimal uses/forays onto my 
machine or Windows machines at the libraries. My wife always notices 
when she is using an app which does not use the native Mac menu bar.

My personal opinion is that UI issues/opinions like such can be overcome 
by having a quality UI which frienldy to the user even if it is 
different from the OS UI. What we need is compelling applications which 
draw the user to want to use our tool regardless/despite a non-native 
UI. Compelling apps with quality (compelling) UI would be enough. For 
those who it isn't good enough for... Oh well they can be stuck in the 
world they choose. :)

I believe the living environment Squeak provides could provide for 
compelling differences in normal everyday apps. I haven't gotten into 
using Celeste yet. But I do long for the day when I have a "usable by 
me" email client in Squeak. Malleable and Customizable. :)

I believe when those apps come and I believe they will. Then we will 
begin to see users of normal apps using Squeak. :)

Jimmie Houchin


Jarvis, Robert P. (Contingent) wrote:
>>From: Jim Benson [mailto:jb at speed.net]
>>
>><lots of good stuff on native windows implementation snipped>
>>
>>However, another sticky point comes up soon after. That is, 
>>you've provided native windows, the use expects to be able
>>to
>>
>>A) have standard OS menus
>>B) have standard OS keystrokes work
> 
> 
> "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds..." - Ralph Waldo
> Emerson  
> 
> In my mind it does not necessarily follow that native windows imply or
> require native widgets, menus, etc.  I'd be happy if I could create multiple
> OS-native windows and play with Morphic inside of them.
> Appearance-and-usability-wise it's really no different than the web, where
> *every* web page has its own style of interface.  Of course, I'm quite happy
> with Squeak as it is, and in some respects I think that the recurring
> discussions about native windows-n-widgets are just a distraction.  Squeak
> is a research project, not a Windows-or-Mac-or-X-native application
> generator.  This is a place for trying out new stuff, not rehashing the old
> stuff.  I don't think that Microsoft, Apple, the X Consortium, or anyone
> else (including Squeak) has yet produced the "perfect interface".  Just my
> ramblings FWIW.
> 
> Bob Jarvis
> Compuware @ Timken