Killer Application (was: Squeak Foundation)

Aaron Alpar aalpar at ix.netcom.com
Sun Jun 9 03:21:19 UTC 2002


Well....  I kinda agree and disagree, although I am far from an authority on 
Squeak much less the Foundation stuff.

Anyhow, for Smalltalk users Squeak, thankfully, is very familiar.  I'd rather 
have a consistent Smalltalk interface than one that implemented all the 
UI-isms of a particular platform.

Your argument that it's difficult for newcomers is certainly valid.  I myself 
wish that there were some OS styles (Windows, Motif, whatever) that could be 
applied to Squeak (maybe there are some that I don't know about), but in the 
absence of the ability to switch UI style I'd rather have a Smalltalk 
interface.

On a historical note, in the early-mid-90's there was such a cry from 
Smalltalk customers to have UIs consistent with host OSs that an 
implementation of Smalltalk was released that had pluggable look-and-feels. 
The amount of effort that went into emulating each OS was significant - the 
emulations were first rate with very few gaps, but it was a mixed success; 
many users found the emulations "unusable" because of the small gaps between 
the Emulation and the host OS (these are little things too, like the key to 
change top-most window without having it gain focus).

Now in the late-90 Java comes along.  Sun talks about introducing yet 
_another_ UI look-and-feel with Swing.  A few people say "don't do it, they 
tried with Smalltalk and just ended up with a bunch of p*ssed off customers 
wanting Windows, or Mac or whatever."  Well, Sun didn't listen, they released 
Swing and nobody complained.

So ... I guess my point is: Preferences change - what is unacceptable at one 
month, may be acceptable the next month.  Also people will adapt to UIs as 
long as there's *usefullness* in the product with the UI.

- Aaron

On Saturday 08 June 2002 07:41 pm, Karl Goiser wrote:
> Hi Gary,
>
> I don't have any argument with you about the relative quality of
> various GUI's.  My problem with Squeak is that its is _different_ and
> there are some very well established user interface principles about
> similarity, predictability and learning that means that switching
> between <insert your os here> and Squeak just won't do.
>
> (I was recently in the USA for Apple's WWDC.  I am an Aussie, so I
> had to think about some of the most mundane things in order to get on
> with what I wanted to do because so many things were the opposite to
> what I was used to: light switches were 'upside down', sink taps
> turned the 'wrong way' - and I had to be so careful when crossing
> streets because cars drove on the 'wrong side of road'.)
>
> I don't have an argument with the Squeak user interface - I think it
> is really good to have something like this where research can be done
> - I just wish there were something just like Squeak that used <insert
> your os here> as well.
>
> Look at it from a newcomer's point of view: Squeak has a wonderful
> language, a great library (viewable in source too) and an unsurpassed
> development environment, but how are they going to find out about
> those things if they can't get past the idiosyncratically unique user
> interface?
>
> In my opinion, you get more users to Squeak by showing them a better
> way to achieve their goals, not another planet to live on.  (Ok, some
> users will want to live on another planet, and that is fine too).
>
> Karl
>
> >To say that Squeak cannot succeed unless it becomes practically
> >indistinguishable from that which it should replace is reminiscent of the
> >argument that automobiles could not succeed unless they looked like
> >carriages.
> >
> >Squeak is not just another medium in which to build Windows or Mac
> >applications; that's far too limited a viewpoint.  That's why your second
> >statement, "On the other hand, when you think about it, isn't Squeak
> > itself the 'killer app'?" is so much closer to the mark (and,
> > coincidentally, exactly what I was going to say. :-)  The trick, then, is
> > to get the word out.  IMHO, at this point Squeak needs evangelists more
> > than developers.




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