On Fri, 29 Mar 2002, David Chase wrote:

> It doesn't suck enough to make a difference, and too many
> times people have declared that "thus-and-such-sucks" for
> that simple assertion to convince anyone.

It sucks enough to make a difference to some people, like myself, who
don't use it.  If it didn't suck, I would use it.

I agree about the "thus-and-such-sucks," business, but I'm not trying to
convince anyone.  I was agreeing.  If the context were different, perhaps
trying to convince a professor let me use Smalltalk on a project rather
than Java, or answering one of the "Why Smalltalk over Java?" threads in
comp.lang.smalltalk, I would've been obliged to back up that statement, if
I wanted anyone to take my assertion seriously.  But I'm not here to
convince anyone to use Squeak over Java- if they want to know why they
should, I imagine they would start a thread. (has anyone else noticed the
remarkable lack of Squeak vs. XXX-lang on the list?)

> Remember, people aren't comparing Java to Squeak (or ML, or Haskell)
> -- they're comparing it to C++.  In that comparison, Java looks pretty
> good.

On a Smalltalk list, I imagine they would be comparing Java to Smalltalk.
In a lot of ways, they are similar in methodology, and have similar
strengths.  Java over C++ advocacy on a Smalltalk list would be a wee bit
[OT]. :)

> If you want to convince someone, you have got to put a little
> more work into your argument, and think a bit about your
> audience.

In the context of the list, why?  A lot of those on this list have a
general idea why we would think that Java sucks.  Those of us who agree
all have our overlapping reasons.  My audience here isn't hardcore C++
coders.

> So, to get to the point, you should either quit whinging about
> how much Java sucks and how misguided Apple is, or you should
> do something about it.  And YOU should do something about it;
> I also want to become more proficient in ML and Haskell, and I
> will pursue whichever learning curve is gentlest.

What would you propose?  I use Squeak in the real world, where
non-squeakers see my apps.  I've written a couple small Mac apps with it
that other people use.   I don't think trying to advocate to Apple would
do much good.

Like Bijan, I would say go with Haskell.  Just generally made more sense
to me, but YMMV. :)

> David Chase (who usually just reads this list)

Regards,
Aaron
(who spends more time answering questions on #squeak than replying here)

  Aaron Reichow  ::  UMD ACM Pres  ::  http://www.d.umn.edu/~reic0024/
  "A weed is just a plant whose virtures have not
                     yet been discovered."            :: r. w. emerson