Hi Andreas!

"Andreas Raab" <andreas.raab at gmx.de> wrote:
> Hi Daniel,
> 
> As this is going to be my last post in this thread (really! I promise ;) I

Hmm, ok!? That doesn't sound so constructive. I have been asking you for
help and for clear explanations of what you perceive is wrong and now
you aren't gonna post anymore?

> want to thank you for this discussion. Even if we have different opinions it
> was a real pleasure to have this discussion with you.
> 
> > I'm saying you and other groups will be able to pursue "strategies" of
> > inclusion, including releasing (somewhat) tailored image, in a Squeak
> > world that supports sharing very well. 
> > 
> > IIUC, you're saying that if this were so you would be happy, but you
> > don't trust we'll get there. Right?
> 
> Sigh. Yeah, that's one part of it but not all. My concerns really can't be
> put into some mechanical solution or other - it's a general feeling that I
> get when I look over what's happening to Squeak, how things develop, what
> priorities are set. Having been in the Squeak community from its very
> beginning, I have seen many changes (some for the good, some for the bad),
> many successes, a few utter failures. But never before did I have the
> feeling that Squeak is as strongly drifting off towards a direction where I

> cannot see any future for it. That's why I asked for vision, that's why I
> want that people look further than the (necessary) cleanup and
> infrastructure work, encourage people to do cool things, encourage them to
> be a place for fun and joy.

Ok, you want people do have visions. To do cool things. To do fun and
joyable things.
Know what? *We are all doing exactly that!*

The only thing is that it isn't what *you* think is visionary, cool and
fun. It is as simple as that.

Look at the Berne guys - they have visions, I think they are having fun.
Look at Dynapad, Seaside, Magma yaddayadda. All things that the authors
think are cool, fun and in many ways visionary. But they aren't
multimedia all the time.

We all have visions and ideas and things we think are fun and important.
But we are all different! And also - most of us couldn't whip up
Balloon3D even if we wanted to - you are probably the sharpest Squeaker
there is. Yes, I firmly believe so.

And it would be a real shame if you think we are going "downhill" and I
would like to do everything I know to make it so you don't think that.
But you really need to come up with something more concrete than simply
telling people to have visions.

> In some way it's funny that so many people have such a hard time
> understanding what I'm talking about (I can literally see you scratching
> your head about "what the hell does he want???" ;-). It means the community
> really has changed (much more than I dared to think) over the years and its
> interests have changed too. If that's the case, so be it. Good luck with all
> the work you're doing (like I was saying, I find it important so this is
> meant honestly).

We haven't changed. Not one bit! But there is no SqC anymore! There is
no strong group pushing the vision of the personal multimedia
environment! In fact, there are no strong groups for *any* directions as
far as I can tell except for the strong support of a modular Squeak that
can enable distributed responsibility and development.

You need to understand that this is an open source project now. For
real, not just "by license". And that means that we need to find new
ways to do things. We need distributed responsibility. We need better
tools for communicating and codeveloping.

> Shutting up now.

I really hope not. You are part of this community too. You are one of us
now - not one of the Gods at SqC. And I think that is a good thing. But
that also means you need to work *with* us and not just *shout at* us.
;-)
 
> Bye,
>   - Andreas

regards, Göran