On Thu, May 08, 2003 at 12:05:05PM +0100, goran.hultgren at bluefish.se wrote:
<snip>

> I can tell you right now that if any of you guys out there think that
> being a Guide must be real fun and that you could surely do a much
> better job than that "whatever his name" - then step right up to the
> plate!
> If you have read the mission statement you know that the intention was
> to rotate people. And I can gladly rotate out at this point if you think
> it would be better with someone else in my place.
> 
> And if you don't feel like stepping up - then please, be just a bit
> patient with us that did. Ok?
> 

Definitely.  And thank you.

> > How could you choose the "The Guides" when guiding has been the last 
> > thing you want to do? It's really beyond me.
> 
> Well, its all about definitions. I want us to "guide" but obviously you
> think that is the same as "make all the decisions" and I don't.
> 
> > > We don't claim to know the Single Truth about what Squeak "should be".
> > 
> > And noone thinks you should.
> 
> Well, people are asking for a Grand Vision and we don't have that. We
> have goals and those have been clearly described in the mission
> statement.
> 
> > > And frankly - whichever Truth we would present there would be people
> > > dropping out of the community because they don't agree with that single
> > > truth.
> > 
> > Maybe. And maybe you would win others who are in favor with that single 
> > truth.
> 
> So what do you want? Do you want us to "come up" with a Truth? Ok, if it
> makes you happier - read the darn mission statement and then stamp the
> word "Truth" over it. I can't understand this sudden urge from all you
> guys that we - just 6 of you guys - should suddenly come up with some
> Grand Vision. We all have different small ideas of what we want to use
> Squeak for - There Is No Single Truth! How many times do I need to
> repeat this. Ahhh, I am getting upset again - calm down, count to 10....
> :-) :-)

Of course you're right that there is NST, but I think that the original
goals of Smalltalk and Squeak are not as well represented in the mission
statement as they could be.  I like Dan's statement from several years
ago:

"Our number one commitment is to an exquisite personal computing
environment. Imagine a system as immediate and tactile as a sketch
pad, in which you can effortlessly mingle writing, drawing, painting,
and all the structured leverage of computer science. Moreover, imagine
that every aspect of that system is described in itself and equally
amenable to examination and composition. Perhaps this system also
extends out over the Internet, including and leveraging off the work
of others. You get the idea: it's the Holy Grail of computer
science. All and everything."

Is there room for something like this in the Guides mission statement?
I think that there should be; even if the Guides can't be expected to
point the way themselves, it should be an explicit priority within the
community to support such efforts (at least verbally, until we figure
out more concrete ways to support them).  

> > But very likely if you had a _vision_ you could win even people who 
> > don't agree with your single truth. Because a vision is even greater 
> > than that, and a real vision is contagious.
> 
> Of course it would be cool if we all shared a Grand Vision - But We
> Don't! Ok?
> 

Ok, I see more clearly where Andreas is coming from.

We had one with Squeak Central, a very Grand Vision indeed.  I think
that this vision is still shared by a large enough segment of
Squeakers that it warrants official recognition by the Guides.

It is important to remember that it is because of this type of vision
that overlapping windows and OO programming even exist.  Without this
vision, we can clean Squeak up and make it one of the best tools out
there for a wide variety of applications, but we will never transcend
the current Squeak in the way that Smalltalk transcended what came
before it.

<snip>

> > > 
> > > This whole discussion is disturbing me. I thought we were doing "ok" -
> > > sure, the Guides aren't saving the world. We are just 6 of you guys. We
> > > try to do the right thing and we try to listen and moderate discussions
> > > - boil stuff down to decisions etc. Obviously Andreas think we are a
> > > complete failure - he wants us to have a Grand Vision. He wants us to
> > > lead the charge into the Future.
> > > 
> > > I don't know what to say. Perhaps we are failing and if all of you think
> > > that then hey - speak up! I don't want to put a lot of work into stuff
> > > that the community don't want... In that case I have better things to
> > > do.
> > 
> > I'm sorry I can't say anything about the work you do, but I strongly 
> > believe that your work really *is* ok.

I think that the Guides are doing a fine job at what they are doing.
But I think that the original Smalltalk/Squeak vision should be
maintained.  A concrete step towards this is to add wording to the
Guide's mission statement to this effect.  This would be enough to
satisfy me for now, since the Guides have their hands full with their
current projects.

<snip>

> Sounds good. And what you call "vision" is then perhaps exactly what we
> have described in our mission statement.
> And let it be noted that noone objected or had any negative comments
> whatsoever when we formed the Guides and posted that mission statement.
> Everything was obviously fine then.

We're allowed to change our minds, right? :-)  

<snip>

> Ok, Ingo - sorry for any heated words etc. I am definitely not annoyed
> or irritated at you personally, so please forgive me if I gave that
> impression. Ok? :-)
> 
> I hope I cleared up some things at least. And I am always all ears. For
> example, we could make the Guides page a bit more "direct" with a few
> bullets on top - perhaps people just don't have the time to read the
> mission statement. And I will try to "take charge" of getting a better
> decision process in place ASAP.
> 
> But still - if what we wrote in the mission statement isn't enough for
> you regarding this "thirst" for a Grand Vision - then I don't really
> know what to do.

There is a large difference between the spirit exemplified by Dan's
quote above and the current mission statement.  I propose that the 
mission statement be amended to include something similar to Dan's
quote.


Best,
Joshua

> 
> regards, Göran