Hi lex

I understand. Still shout is excellent. This is not a tool, this is 
your best friend when typing.
Then if mark does not know tools how can he evaluate them?
You see
	- open SM
	- load shout (two clicks)
Then to install MC this is
	- open SM
	- select MCInstaller (two click)
	- + create package
	-
So I'm sure that a bit optimistic but I do not think that this much 
harder
than the current mess with squeak (just looks how complex are the menu).
And cs suck. Sorry for me once I setup my package I have one click 
button.
and cs are broken...because if I create two of them then change 
something when I sai
changes should go to one then both get changed.


stef



On 28 sept. 04, at 20:54, lex at cc.gatech.edu wrote:

> =?ISO-8859-1?Q?st=E9phane_ducasse?= <ducasse at iam.unibe.ch> wrote:
>> You have to look at Monticello :). The idea is that a category is a
>> package then you have to mark class extension using *mycategory
>> then you can publish a package on a ftp, disk, http server and this is
>> really cool. Because you get all your code away from an image in a 
>> save
>> and
>> reproduceable environment. I can send you the extremely limited doc I
>> started to do for my students. (but this is really limited 3 pages).
>> Shout is really cool.
>
> Guys, this is all worth looking at for sure, but please keep in mind
> what this class is like.
>
> It's a one-semester long class.  A big selling point of Squeak in this 
> class
> has been that the students can do large projects without having to 
> learn
> lots of language syntax nor lots of specialized tools.  There is one 
> big
> thing that they have to learn, that Squeak *should* put in their face,
> and that's how to program with objects.  Beyond that, everything should
> be as easy as possible; e.g., you execute code by do-it on the menu, 
> you
> browse to any code in the system through a single browser, and lots of
> useful libraries just happen to be pre-loaded.
>
> In short, these guys are already working hard.  There is no room to add
> more wonderful CS topics, unless you can think of something else that
> should be removed (or, unless you shrink the class project -- ick!).  
> If
> you want to think of ways to move them over to Monticello, 
> SqueakSource,
> and whatever other new goodies, then please be thinking about ways to
> use them where students don't have to really think about it.  Please
> think of ways that the instructors can set up an image and any 
> necessary
> servers, and then for everything to just work with no further though
> from the students.  Please think in terms of replacing one current easy
> practice with another easy practice.
>
> To give you an idea where these students are: many of them never even
> learn to use *change sets*.
>
>
> -Lex
>
>
> PS -- SqueakMap, in the semesters I've seen it used, seemed to actually
> *lower* the amount of effort students needed, because they spent
> less time trawling through web sites.  Kudos, Goran!!
>
>
> PPS -- If Mark, of all people, overlooked SqueakMap, then we need to 
> really
> make sure that these new nifty tools get integrated into the normal 
> development
> environment eventually.  You shouldn't know you are using "Shout", 
> "SqueakMap",
> "Monticello", etc. -- it should eventually be "the code browser", "the 
> package
> browser", "the package browser", etc.
>