On Fri, 4 Feb 2005 11:12:26 +0200, <goran.krampe at bluefish.se> wrote:
> What you describe is already being done in the Spoon project mainly
> worked on by Craig Latta:
>
I know.

>
> This work is planned to eventually become the base for Squeak 4 or 5.

I know that to. The whole uncertainty of planning, of where it's going,  
etcetera, makes Spoon - while an extremely interesting piece of work - a  
more longer-term goal. When it's there, it's nice to start with; as long  
as it ain't there we should not let everyone wait. One doesn't preclude  
the other, IMO.

> Eh, well IMHO the problem with uninstalling packages is not exactly what
> you describe.

Yup. But I think you agree that it's hard. IMO harder than taking an  
arbitrary package, attempting to load it on a too small image, and fixing  
dependencies, whatever.

> 1. Don't allow code to run on package installation. Class initilization
> still needs to be done, so either that code HAVE TO be nice or we will
> have to come up with another way to do class initialization - or sandbox
> it somehow.

If that is necessary just for making sure that the package can be  
unloaded, I think it's throwing out the baby with the bathwater.

> 2. If arbitrary code still should be allowed to run - we need
> transactional object memory and/or some kind of sandboxes. Hehe, yeah,
> right.
>
Yup. Very long term goal :)


> Well, as I described above - it isn't that simple. You would still need
> to *produce* all those packages. Just try ripping out something from
> Morphic and you will soon understand what we mean. It is hard work. On
> the other hand, given that Tweak soon is operational (?) perhaps we
> stand a better chance.
>
That's a bit the problem that I'm having with all this. "Soon" we'll have  
Spoon. "Soon" we'll have Tweak. Etcetera. We're waiting for stuff that  
might or might not happen, while it's about time to do something (I really  
think that Squeak deteriorated during the 3 series)

> Well, something like that. Ok, do we have someone willing to be General
> on this? I can and should grab number 1 and get that done. And damnit, I
> will. But I need help with the rest.
>
That bit has to be done anyway, so I'll be glad to help.