OT - Squeak and the Broader Software Community
dway at mailcan.com
Thu Jul 13 04:19:13 UTC 2006
On Jul 7, 2006, at 4:56 PM, nicolas cellier wrote:
> Once more, this thread is going to focus on the look...
> As already said many times in many threads, maybe look is good to
> appeal new
> But whether windows should be green or orange, or the button have
> borders, oval corner or a shadow is not the more important.
> What is more important is feel.
> I do not know how good is Squeak UI on Mac, but windows and linux
> squeak feel
> are not at the level we would expect such a wonderfull tool.
The Squeak UI on the Mac is identical to the Squeak UI on Windows &
Linux (being totally non-native), so yes, you do know how good the
Squeak UI on the Mac is. :-)
> How can i switch keyboard focus from one pane to another, or change
> stack order without using the mouse?
While I think complaints about the Squeak UI look are sometimes
unwarranted, complaints about the feel and especially keyboard focus
usually *are* warranted. :-) The keyboard focus behavior in Squeak
(Morphic/MVC) is generally bad, terrible, and just plain lousy.
Fortunately, I don't think I've ever seen anyone claim otherwise, so
we all know it's a lacking area in Squeak.
The biggest problem I think is that keyboard focus for SystemWindows
and other common widgets/morphs was just never really implemented.
For example, changing focus between window panes, or between windows,
etc, cannot be done via the keyboard. But some stuff such as
keyboard arrowing up and down in lists to change selection does work.
Then there's Squeak's keyboard focus behavior when moving the mouse
around, which is sort of a combination of Mac/Windows "click to
focus" and X11 "mouse over focus" behavior. In Squeak, you have
"click to focus" behavior between windows (you have to click on a
window to type in it), but between panes within a window, you have to
mouse over to that pane. After using all three UIs over the years,
I'd say having a mix is probably the worst option... it might be
worth converting Squeak to just one or the other. (I'd lean toward
"click to focus".) I'm guessing this behavior originated with
And then then are some bugs & inconsistencies thrown in here and
there too. :)
> Did you really try to copy/paste text from squeak to another
> application et
> vice et versa? switching from ALT+C to CTRL+V, or the contrary is
> really is
> gymnastic for user hands and brain... That is obviously why a
> little bit of
> standardization does not harm.
For a bit of good news, this is actually fixed in Squeak 3.9. You
can use either ctrl or alt (cmd) for the common text-editing key
commands. (The dup ctrl-alt keys preference is turned on by
default. A more expert user can turn it off if desired.)
> My personnal opinion is that among palo alto inventions, the mouse
> was not the
> greatest. Hands are wonderfull tools with a lot of articulations.
> Compare how
> many articulations are working when hitting the keyboard and how
> many when
> using the mouse... You will understand why many feel the mouse as a
> And why many are still using emacs vi and mc.
I would not go that far... the mouse is a great thing. But it would
be great to be able to just rely on the keyboard to do typical
development/windowing UI tasks in Squeak. I think this is achievable
if someone wants to take it on.
> So, when you say "the look does not matter", or Squeak UI is great,
> don't forget the feel. Lot of people won't find mouse-centric UI
> that great.
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