YASoB (was Re: some news)

Sebastián Sastre ssastre at seaswork.com.ar
Tue May 16 15:31:29 UTC 2006


I see ST-80 as a little piece of rock (micro island) over the surface of the
allways changing Squeak waters. Even if you know how to swim very well,
sometimes you will want to grasp for a while on it. If agitation of change
becomes too chaotic, not even your best swimming skills can save you.
I'm waiting to see a continent somtime, a firm big space where things can
evolve putting their feets on it. For now the little rock it's a must.

Cheers,

Sebatian
 

> -----Mensaje original-----
> De: squeak-dev-bounces at lists.squeakfoundation.org 
> [mailto:squeak-dev-bounces at lists.squeakfoundation.org] En 
> nombre de SmallSqueak
> Enviado el: Martes, 16 de Mayo de 2006 06:24
> Para: squeak-dev at lists.squeakfoundation.org
> Asunto: YASoB (was Re: some news)
> 
> 
> 
> "Alan Kay" wrote: 
> 
> "... it really bothers me that so many people on this list 
> are satisfied with Smalltalk-80 (Yikes!) But that's another soapbox."
> 
> 
> Dear Seasoned Squeakers,
> 
> 	I have followed this list for a while and I have a feeling
> 	that Alan Kay is not particularly fond of Smalltalk-80.
> 
> 	I've been wondering why or maybe I got it wrong.
> 
> 	Your thought is very much appreciated.
> 
> 	I really hope if Alan is not too busy we will be
> 	able to hear it straight from the Dragon's mouth. ;-)
> 
> 	Cheers,
> 
> 	PhiHo
> 
> 
> 
> Hi --
> 
> I would gently suggest you are missing the points here.
> 
> You wrote at the end:
> >As said Garrison Keillor:
> >"I believe in looking reality straight in the eye and denying it."
> 
> I'm sure the irony was unintended.
> 
> The reality is that we need to use every possible route to 
> try to get content of a high level and learnability to 
> children everywhere. If most of the computer world does not 
> like to use Smalltalk (this seems to be
> reality) we shouldn't pout and stamp our feet about it, but 
> try to make examples that will help lift people's perception 
> of what is possible.
> 
> If the Python folks want "Programming for everyone" and we 
> can get them to see that there are some important things that 
> need to be done to make the experience what it should be for 
> children, then we should help them. Sure, I'd love to see 
> them understand more about Smalltalk, but it is the 
> psychology of that culture (and large parts of the Smalltalk 
> culture, and most programming cultures) for computer folks to 
> want to come up with their own ideas and solutions. E.g. it 
> really bothers me that so many people on this list are 
> satisfied with Smalltalk-80 (Yikes!) But that's another soapbox.
> 
> This is why computing is not a real scientific field, but 
> much more like a pop culture (and sometimes like psychopathic 
> children tearing wings off flies). If parts of the pop 
> culture get interested in bigger problems (and they are and 
> are being forced by circumstances to) then we can and should 
> help them invent rounder wheels.
> 
> You are complaining about the irrationality of human beings. 
> If they were rational, then we wouldn't need to worry about 
> education, and there wouldn't have been a 3rd world in the 
> 21st century. Most people's imaginations are so undeveloped 
> as to be essentially non-existent. This is why we had to 
> build more than a 1000 Altos, dozens of Ethernets and laser 
> printers before anyone, let alone Xerox was even willing to 
> concede that personal computing was a topic. As Butler 
> Lampson as remarked "One of the things that made this easier 
> than it could have been was that no one in the world was 
> doing personal computing in the early 70s except for PARC. We 
> had the entire field to ourselves, and thus could take our 
> time to choose the riches paths we could imagine."
> 
> What's needed for this effort more than any other thing are 
> compelling examples that can be used as prototypes for many 
> kinds of home grown content. Part of "compelling" is the 
> sense that the local groups can really feel in control of 
> their software experience. Not terribly un-rational actually. 
> It would be more rational if they were willing to learn 
> Smalltalk, but so what if they don't want to. The Internet is 
> the real key here, and the web part has been terribly 
> botched. But I think the good content is going to look more 
> like Etoys than either Smalltalk or Python or Ruby, so who 
> cares about which religon is used?
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Alan
> 
> 
> At 09:03 AM 4/22/2006, Hilaire Fernandes wrote:
> >Really? Eventually children suffering from anemia will die. 
> Those day,
> >each 5 second a kid (bellow 10) die because of 
> mal-nutrition. Since the
> >begining of this thread more than 34000 kids die for such reason, I
> >can't agree the effect is the same.
> >
> >I just really feel unconfortable about plan, in the name of kids in
> >developing countries, related to spend resources just to re-develop
> >existing stuff.
> >You know that Smalltalk and its environment are far superior 
> to Python,
> >so I cannot understand you stand "kid first" and at the same 
> time your
> >position about spending resources re-developping a graphical 
> environment
> >with an inferior vehicule. It is just non-sense. It will 
> make more sense
> >to re-developped more advanced language&environment on top of
> >Smalltalk/Squeak. Was it not your initial plan?
> >
> >As said Garrison Keillor:
> >"I believe in looking reality straight in the eye and denying it."
> >
> >Hilaire
> >
> >Alan Kay a écrit :
> > > We have television instead of anemia, but it has a 
> similar effect ...
> > >
> > > Cheers,
> > >
> > > Alan
> > >
> > > -------------
> > >
> > > At 07:06 AM 4/22/2006, Hilaire Fernandes wrote:
> > >
> > >> Alan Kay a écrit :
> > >> > Yes, if only the world -- especially computer people 
> -- were even
> > >> > halfway rational and interesting in learning ... but 
> this is one of
> the
> > >> > main goals of education (= enlightenment, etc.), and 
> this is why
> global
> > >> > education for everyone has been my main interest over 
> the years.
> > >> >
> > >> > As Seymour once said, "I wish the US was still a developing
> country!").
> > >> > We could say that about Europe also....
> > >>
> > >> Hum, not sure to understand. In developping country, one related
> problem
> > >> to education is to avoid children suffer from anemia, 
> which make them
> > >> unable to concentrate on anything.
> > >>
> > >> Hilaire
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ----------
> 
> 




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