Removing Etoys (was Re: A process proposal for 3.10)

Josh Gargus schwa at
Wed Oct 18 13:27:46 UTC 2006

This goes back to one of the opinions that Marcus expressed earlier  
in the thread:

"The SqueakLand people don't use 3.9, and I am quite sure they never  

This rings true to me (although it would be nice to hear directly  
from a squeaklander).  In my understanding, it was the  
internationalization code in 3.8 that made it worthwhile for  
squeakland to undergo the difficult synchronization.  I don't think  
that there is anything compelling enough in 3.9 (or that has been  
discussed for 3.10) to justify the effort again, especially with a  
Tweak version of EToys not too far over the horizon.


On Oct 18, 2006, at 8:37 AM, Bert Freudenberg wrote:

> As Juan wrote, removing Etoys from Morphic while keeping it both  
> loadable and functioning properly is futile.
> So either you leave it in, or you consciously give up compatibility  
> with anyone using Etoys now, like the squeakland distribution, OLPC  
> distribution, Smalland, the Spanish LinEx version, the Japanese  
> Nihongo version etc. Already synchronizing Squeakland and 3.8 was  
> hard, nobody has tried yet for 3.9, but this would make it outright  
> impossible.
> I'm *not* saying you should not do this, but please be aware of the  
> possible consequences.
> - Bert -
> Am 18.10.2006 um 14:11 schrieb jvuletich at
>> Hi Giovanni,
>> I don't think what you say is doable. We don't have the means to  
>> break all
>> dependencies on eToys, and at the same time keep eToys working. It  
>> would
>> need the same kind of work as to make it unloadable and loadable  
>> back.
>> When I realized how much refactoring is needed to do that, I  
>> stopped the
>> MorphicSplitters effort and quited as the Morphic Steward.
>> What I propose can be done. I did it for 3.7. You can download it  
>> from
>> EtoysFreeMorphic.html . I
>> believe Pavel did something similar (although I haven't looked at it.
>> Anyway, I'd like to be proven wrong. Are you volunteering?
>> Cheers,
>> Juan Vuletich
>>> When resource is scare, the smarter come out ;)
>>> How is big etoys?
>>> And How is deeply integrated in Squeak?
>>> If Etoy is not so big (as I remembered), we can simply start to  
>>> "cut its
>>> wires" from Morphic and let it aging around.
>>> We can start creating a mechanism to deprecate some methods.
>>> By the way the deprecation engine seems to me very important to do.
>>> We can do this thing with less then 8 hours of work in my own  
>>> opinion,
>>> I suggest to rethink our apprach and to adopt a "Panta  
>>> Rei" (verything
>>> changes - the philosophy of Heraclitus).
>>> We should start to plan the new Squeak version WITHOUT throwing  
>>> away the
>>> bad
>>> things.
>>> We can start taking bad thing alone in a room, putting heavy  
>>> doors in it,
>>> and then
>>> prohibing them to exit :)
>>> The other developers will start stopping using EToy in a smooth way.
>>> After a while we can think how to dismiss them... or not.
>>> In my own opinion frequently Squeak home change, so the problem  
>>> will solve
>>> smootly without so much pain.
>>> Let's discuss on this approach.
>>> On 10/18/06, Juan Vuletich <jvuletich at> wrote:
>>>> So, this seems a good time to remove eToys from the official  
>>>> release. I
>>>> can team with Pavel and Stef (and any other volunteer) to do this.
>>>> However, it will take some 20 or 30 hours of work, and I think  
>>>> we need
>>>> to know if this will be adopted, otherwise I won't spend time on  
>>>> it.
>>>> I guess the Board could lead, and make a decision, or enlight me  
>>>> about
>>>> the decision process for issues like this one.
>>>> Cheers,
>>>> Juan Vuletich
>>>> Marcus Denker wrote:
>>>>> The SqueakLand people don't use 3.9, and I am quite sure they  
>>>>> never
>>>> will.
>>>>> Etoys 1 is past live-cycle. There is 3.8/OLPC which is a cool  
>>>>> Etoys
>>>>> image for eToys1.
>>>>> For the future, there needs to be a new eToys2 that is  
>>>>> maintainable.
>>>>> There is a very cool demo of a next-gen eToys based on Tweak.
>>>>> That seems, to me, much more the thing to take a look at for the
>>>> future
>>>>> eToy system.
>>>>>        Marcus
>>> --
>>> "Just Design It" -- GG
>>> Software Architect

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