Info on Smalltalk DSLs or Metaprogramming...

J J azreal1977 at hotmail.com
Wed Sep 6 21:00:26 UTC 2006


Thanks very much for your honest response (i.e. not holding anything back).

(comments below)

>Possible indeed, rather simple I think - but I am not sure what is
>actually needed.
>
>The basic mechanism of executing scripts using command line arguments is
>already present in the image and in the VM. I use it to "jump start"
>images on headless machines for example. Like a small script that fires
>up Seaside, sets some settings etc. It is a bit awkward to specify the
>file as a *correct* file URL, but it works.
>
>But granted I am unsure how the current mechanism deals with syntax
>errors, undeclared vars, etc. Not sure what feedback you get - if any.
>:) So yes, that might be worth looking at - unless someone else has
>already done it. It is not the first time this "scriptability" thing has
>popped up.
>

Well, I haven't noticed anyone saying they have done it yet (have seen 
different
solutions on different platforms, but not something for squeak yet).

>And almost all other issues that have been extensively discussed the
>last few weeks on Squeak-dev have also been discussed on numerous
>occasions for the last 10 years. Yup, I am not kidding. And I am not
>trying to dissuade you all from pursuing these discussions by all means
>- but you might want to do some digging in archives. There is a LOT to
>be found there.
>

I am not surprised at all.  I know you guys have been working hard for the 
whole
time.  But maybe today something will be different to make it work.  Or 
maybe
the approach this time can be different enough to work.

>For example - the problem and ideas around documentation and a
>documentation team is a really well known "issue" in the Squeak
>community. There have been numerous attempts, numerous ideas (one
>example from me even called the Magic Book), numerous failures and also
>numerous small successes.
>

But how many of these have not worked because the scope was too big?  I used
to work with a guy in america who was a great programmer and a very bright 
man.
But if you wanted a project from him it was going to take months or years.  
Requirements
always change and he just wouldn't release anything that didn't do 
everything the customer
wanted.  For a constantly changing definition of "everything".

I think if the initial try is modest, just a quick cut to get us better then 
we are right now,
and then move from there it would have a chance.

But I just really think this *has* to get fixed if smalltalk is to go where 
it belongs.

Where does smalltalk get the next generation of developers?  College?  
Unfortunatly no.
College has the same financial responsibilities as everyone else.  The 
companies that donate
money to them want people who know <insert fad language>, not some language 
they
don't know.  The studends want to learn <insert fad language> because most 
are there to
get good paying jobs.  To get college to start teaching more smalltalk, more 
companies have
to use it.  *Lots* more companies then are using it right now.

Kids?  I appreciate the work that has gone on in this area for sure.  But 
this isn't how
smalltalk is going to get the next generation of developers.  These kids 
will play with it,
enjoy it, then grow up, go to college and if they even do some CS related 
degree they
are going to be learning <insert fad language> because (a) that's what's 
taught and
(b) that's what pays.

The place smalltalk gets it's new developers is the place everyone gets 
them: mostly from
the existing base of developers.  But if you want to get people from the 
existing base then
they have to see that this language is going to help them get their work 
done.

This is why so many people switched from Perl to Ruby and Python.  It was a 
familiar world
but without all the badness of the world they currently lived in.

I am not saying smalltalk needs to turn into java, certainly not.  But there 
need to be some
things that java people recognize.  Like documentation in a form they 
expect.  And maybe
a simple script interface for people comming from that side of the house.

I relize it has been tried before.  But I think it has to be tried again 
until it works. :)





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