Hi all,
I'm new in this list, at least as a writer... I'd been reading the posts for
awhile and I'm very interested in squeak development... and yes, I would
like to see squeak all around the world, not being used just for a few
developers.
I totally agree with Milan, the key is to atract more developers to Squeak
world... and through them to the managers :)
Ok, then... this days, many software applications are web applications. In
fact, it has been several  years  since I develop a "normal" application (of
course, It's just my life, but I think many programmers could say the same),
so, I really believe that Seaside is the killer framework for web
applications... and I think throug Seaside (and developing new tools and
components to harness it ) we can "conquer the web".
Another thinks I think we need:
a) better ORMs to propietary data bases, particularly Oracle and MSSQL: ODBC
is not really a good way to do this, because our applications get tied to
Windows.
b) a better system to distribute objects (rST?), or better: a way to connect
images running so we can cluster web applications in the easy way.

Thats my 2 cents.

Cheers,
Esteban

pd: I'm very sorry if this is no news or not interesting for the members of
the list... I'm new and don't know older debates.
ppd: I know... my english sucks, so, I'm sorry for that to.


On 2/1/07, Derek O'Connell <doconnel at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Regarding "attracting more developers": before appearing critical I'd
> like to say that *I see* the potential in Squeak/Smalltalk but I'm not
> sure it is immediately apparent to many others (meaning those yet to
> encounter Squeak/Smalltalk). This is not to say I have any sort of
> special insight or anything but because of years of relying on other
> developers to one extent or another it is refreshing to work in an
> environment where each new nugget of learning contributes to my
> knowledge of the *total* environment. There's no technology barrier at
> which point I have to re-tool to gain deeper control of the
> environment (beyond the obvious topic of customising the VM but even
> this would be transitory (do it then just use it)). My only regret is
> that I didn't "discover" it years ago. I'm also grateful that
> experienced developers continue to improve Squeak but... (you knew it
> was coming :-) )...
>
> Squeak/Smalltalk has been around for years with I guess large numbers
> of interested developers at one time or another but still has almost
> *ZERO* mindshare in the general computer using population and, I would
> also guess, close to zero in those that can or want to program. This,
> IMHO, is not simply a pubilicity problem, it's a presentation problem.
> Framed crudely: Squeak/Smalltalk *is* a great development environment
> but a dire *user* environment. Yes, Morphic is way cool but most user
> oriented "applications" are mashed up with non-application elements
> and many an answer to newbies questions begin with "Open up a
> workspace, type "blah new openInWorld", right-click, select "DoIt"...
> I mean, COME ON! What century are we in? I say this somewhat
> tounge-in-cheek because if you have convinced a newbie to do this then
> you can immediately claim that they have written and executed their
> first Smalltalk program ("there, that wasn't hard was it?" LOL).
>
> So to get specific: should the focus be on attracting more developers
> or more "casual" users, and are better development tools needed or
> more end-user applications? In truth there is no correct answer and it
> is a bit of a chicken-n-egg situation. Any answer depends on the state
> of affairs at the time it is given. Today there are developers (I'm
> not sure how many) but I argue that there are *no* casual users and
> that end-user applications are needed. If the question is "who cares
> about casual users?" then I say that these, not developers, are future
> life-blood of Squeak/Smalltalk development, they will generate the
> demand that ensures Squeak/Smalltalk continues to exist and improve. I
> could also question the role of developers without end-users and
> postulate that if there were more end-users today then there would
> also be jobs for Smalltalk developers... and everyone would be happy
> :-P
>
> A few final points:
>
> - I pay homage to EToys, Seaside,  Scratch, Sophie etc but none of
> these are what I would class as In-Squeak user-based applications.
> Croquet of course offers potential but I would say not for general
> consumption until high speed comms and 3D hw acceleration become so
> standard that suppliers/manufacturers list them in their basic specs
> (if only people would not dream to buy machines without hw 3D!)
>
> - I recognise the wealth of code in the image but question the
> accessibility of this to casual users or even wanna-be programmers. In
> the case of the former presentation is very much key, for the latter
> the amorphousness of Smalltalk interfaces lack the "sign-posts"
> provided by well-documented API's in other environments.
>
> - Squeak is an ideal place to challenge peoples concepts of what a GUI
> is and what they should be able to with it. A much better environment
> for *any* sort of experimentation than say "Proce55ing". I have a few
> ideas that I'd like to throw into the pot, depending on what direction
> Brad takes this conversation.
>
> - To the hardcore Smalltalk developers: despite any apparent
> criticisms above, I LOVE YOU! WE LOVE YOU! Carry on coding dudes! :-)
>
>


-- 
"Querer es suscitar las paradojas"
Camus. El míto de Sísifo.
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