norbert at hartl.name
Fri Jun 29 14:02:04 UTC 2007
On Fri, 2007-06-29 at 14:10 +0200, stephane ducasse wrote:
> After trying to clean SystemDictionary I think that at the end what
> should be done
> (I proposed that but we did not do it at the end because we were burnt):
> - is to keep Smalltalk as a placeholder for image related behavior
> like saving, abandonning sources,...
> - have a namespace class which support class/global management
> I proposed a migration path but (I did not have the energy to have a
> prototype of what I was proposing
> May be I should- but back then I was burnt and sick of complains).
This sounds as the work has to be kept up. If there is a wishlist for
3.11 it should be placed onto it.
> > I meant I had problems with software that had to be changed. And
> > yes I reported it. It was at least RemoteFramebuffer and Glorp
> > where I reported and provided fixes. Do you remember me trying to
> > contact Ian ?
> But did you enter big reports in mantis because this is the only way
> to keep track
> of bug and that we can fix and improve them.
No, at the same time trying to find Ian I was asking for the right
procedure to solve such kind of bugs. As neither RemoteFrameBuffer
nor Glorp are part of squeak I didn't come to the idea using mantis.
I'll take a close look at mantis and what/how tickets/bugs are
entered. And it is not clear for a newbie that trivial things like
"exchange Smalltalk with SmalltalkImage current" is to be put into
mantis. If it is just for the record then how should someone know?
> >> you can find the complete motivation in the archives but in a
> >> nutshell the point
> >> was that Smalltalk is a namespace and that over time it agglomerates
> >> a lot of extra behavior (sometimes junk) that has nothing to do with
> >> namespace management.
> >> But with bookkeeping of the image. We tried to clean it up but we
> >> also stopped in the middle
> >> since we were pissed off by complains.
> > Ah, ok, cleaning up _is_ indeed a good motivation for doing it.
> We were always aware that we were introducing changes and that it
> would affect people
> this is always this tension between moving and staying at the same
Yes, that is true. But if I remember it correct I noticed you as a
guy who often argues to keep the protocol of objects unchanged. And
that doesn't fit into my mind together with removing methods from
Smalltalk :) Maybe I don't get you right.
> > Were there alternative suggestions from those who did complain?
> Not to do it. Smalltalk is cool :)
> Random refactoring...
Stef, I don't understand this, except this is meant ironic. And than
I have problems understanding why.
> > While this work is stopped in the middle of ... this is still a task
> > to compete it or to roll it back?
> We got sick of squeak. :)
Same as above. I can't understand this.
> > What makes me wonder is the fact that most of the bigger changes are
> > discussed here up front and very extensive. So I can't understand why
> > there were so much complaints _after_ the changes.
> because it was incremental and not that discussed. Even if it makes a
> lot of sense
> to have SmalltalkImage and SystemDictionary separate classes.
Does the release team have absolute powers? :)
> > It sounds good. I'll have a look at it if I find some spare time. Just
> > to figure out what it's all about.
> >>> Btw. how much smalltalk images I'm able to run. new
> >>> is disabled. I don't get it.
> >> me neither
> > Ok, now I understand why it is like it is. Thanks for explaining your
> > motivation. I didn't want to step on your excellent work I just wasn't
> > able to find anything useful on the net about this change.
> What I can tell you is that we always try to pay attention and this is
> also why we got burn. We had this vision (dan one) that a system should
> be lean and clean that people can really learn from it. Now some
> were made and may be they were not optimal....
I think this is completely normal. That is one reason why I like the
squeak community so much. There are a lot of guys with academic
background trying to make a good and valuable piece out of squeak. And
there are enough people working on concrete projects which most of the
time introduce hackish style things into the same thing called squeak.
And most of the time they meet on such a list like this one and the
discuss in a good way. That is a thing about squeak which is most
promising to me.
just my two cents,
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