Jerome Peace <peace_the_dreamer <at> yahoo.com> writes:

> I watch all of Keith's efforts with wonder and some
> trepidation.
> 
> He has very bold plans and when kept after (by others)
> may do an reasonable job of coding.
> 
> He is also off acting on his own on what he thinks is
> needed.

>From the point of view of the dev list, it doesn't seem to be completely 
striking out on his own: the "towards 3.9.1" thread seemed broadly 
supportive. Edgar quite rightly put forward questions to do with future 
developments in the same thread, but I didn't see those as negative, and 
support his vision and reasons for raising the questions. 
 
> I see what he is doing as undermining the efforts of
> the 3.10 team.  And I wonder why this is.

Do you mean you wonder why you see it this way, or do you mean you wonder 
why it is undermining the 3.10 team?
  
> He is appropriating the version number 3.9.1.  Which
> portrays an intention for his release to be a
> successor to 3.9 but close to it.
> [snip]
> Keith has the power to do what he will.  But calling
> it 3.9.1 implies a blessing for his actions that he
> has not formally asked for nor formally received. Some
> controls should be put on what he calls it less his
> efforts be taken (by those outside) as authorized and
> encourgaged by the offical board.

This is a fair point. IMO if used "officially" the 3.9.1 name should indeed 
be used for a release that is "offically blessed" by the community. 

I do not know whether Keith thinks of it in his mind as an official 
release. Perhaps he does (I'm sure somebody would tell me if so). Perhaps 
he refers to it as 3.9.1 simply because that is the closest traditional 
version name that represents the state he's trying to get an image to.

Either way, the reason I think his effort could be worthwhile in addition 
to the 3.10 team (I in no way wish to undermine the 3.10 team's efforts) is 
because it will get the fixes and changes he's incorporating "into the 
wild" that much sooner.

Admittedly, if it's not an official 3.9.1 release it's likely that not as 
many people will use Keith's resultant image than if it was official. 
Despite this, if his efforts are publically available, some people are 
going to use it.

It has struck me for some time that Mantis and posts to the list together 
contain a *lot* of useful fixes and suggestions that spend a long time 
there, not being incorporated into a downloadable image. Many of the fixes 
are very important. I submit that while it is easy for experienced 
Squeakers to file/MC these fixes into their images, or incorporate them 
into their own dev environments, it is not easy for somebody new to do so.

I think the 3.10 effort would benefit from seeing some of these fixes it 
may wish to use incorporated into an interim effort with public visibility: 
this will give real user feedback on whether the fixes are viable or not, 
without the need for a lengthy 3.10alpha/beta (at least for those fixes), 
and importantly exposure to users whose relative lack of Squeak experience 
may well lead to feedback on those fixes that those more skilled with 
Squeak may not have found.

Certainly in my experience it is those new to a system who expose its 
faults or shortcomings the quickest, and often the same people who have 
great ideas for something new directly because of their lack of experience.

Of course the same is true for fixes Keith may choose that do not tally 
with those the 3.10 team would choose. Here I think that all parties would 
benefit from plenty of communication to try and make sure the two efforts 
do not clash.

Early and regular release of software (providing it is ready for release!) 
is good, but not at the expense of a divergent community.

Just my (overly long) thoughts.

Cheers,
Simon