On Mon, Apr 7, 2008 at 1:34 PM, Stephen Pair <stephen at pairhome.net> wrote:
>
> On Mon, Apr 7, 2008 at 5:23 AM, Derek O'Connell <doconnel at gmail.com> wrote:
> > I believe the idea of exclusive content (whatever that may be) is not
> > a solution to funding. In fact I think it will even have the opposite
> > effect of alienating many of the *178* who bothered enough to vote.
> > Much better to foster a more *inclusive* community spirit and try to
> > increase that number a 100 times.
>
> Squeak has been around more than 10 years now.  It's not evident to me that
> the community is significantly larger today than it was just a couple years
> after its debut.

Are you saying that is good/bad/not-a-problem?

>  As for alienating, I don't see anything exclusive or
> alienating about this approach.

I don't disagree with your proposal in principle but I think
willingness to contribute (if at all needed) may only come after the
fee paying period. OTOH if that period is kept short enough then maybe
people will play along with the idea.

> > Then you may have the critical mass
> > to offer value-added extras. Blender is a good example and despite
> > past failures it now seems to be doing pretty well.
>
> Blender happened under almost the exact same circumstances that I propose,
> only by accident (and on a much longer timeframe than I would envision).

Do mean originally or lately? Or do you refer to the period of
"Blender Publisher"? If you mean the latter then IIRC it failed and
there was a period of uncertainty about Blender's future until the
"Foundation" idea arose. Blender already had a good following by then
but IMHO this was a catalyst for fostering community spirit and
probably provided a momentum that still benefits Blender and it's
users today. I only use Blender occasionally these days but I did buy
Publisher and I bought every edition of the manual and will continue
to do so. Why? Hmmm, because Ton and his crew are responsive, open,
helpful, have vision, purpose and, damn it, I just *want* them to
succeed :-) Get 20000 "users" and money will flow if only a fraction
of them have that attitude.

In fairness you may now wonder if I have that attitude to Squeak.
Sort-a, maybe-ish. Even though I can see potential and firmly believe
that Squeak should be on everyone's "must-learn-to-use" list, I am not
surprised it isn't. The user friendly façade is skin-deep, getting
information is sometimes akin to pulling one's own teeth, what should
be simple tasks often end up feeling like quicksand, "documentation"
is seemingly a dirty word (SBE, a sterling effort, came long after my
first experiences), there's too much "pay me if you want it" demand
type attitude, a refusal in some respects to move with the times and
especially no/little recognition that some people just want to "use"
it, not get intimate with it's darkest depth's almost every time you
set out to do something (that's sort of the same as the "quicksand"
comment I know, but sort-of different ;-) ). I have commented in the
past to the effect that some sort of buffer is needed for
new/occasional users and I also think the user experience has to
rock-solid.

OTOH where Squeak leads others follow and it's community has some of
the brightest, ingenious, helpful and dedicated people I have come
across... but it is clearly not enough. My stance is more users = more
activity = more visibility = more willingness to adopt = more chance
of general funding (rather than just for occasional specific tasks).
Then again recent comments on the ML claiming new users not required/
community is large enough, etc, make me despondent and dents my
enthusiasm.

> > Outside of the
> > product itself, I put most of Blenders success down to the very
> > vibrant BlenderArtists FORUM with "over 20,000 registered users". IMHO
> > a modern style forum is essential these days as I suspect most of the
> > younger generation are simply not inspired by mailing lists. There is
> > a sense of "congregating" around a forum while a mailing-list appears
> > as a somewhat intrusive cluttering of already busy mailboxes. It would
> > also help if there was a more visible focus on new users and usability
> > in general.
>
> This is a different topic...but, yes, I'm with you on it...anything that
> could enhance the community experience would be a good thing.
>
> - Stephen

Different, I agree, but all interrelated. This is one of those few
occasions when I would tip my beany-cap at marketing people and saying
"branding" and "delivery on brand promises" is all-important.

BTW, welcome back after your five year absence! Care to explain why
you left/ what brought you back? May be some lessons there :-)