[squeak-dev] I'm stepping down as WebTeam Leader Mars 31

Jimmie Houchin j.squeak at cyberhaus.us
Sat Mar 15 03:56:40 UTC 2008

Brad Fuller wrote:
> On Fri, Mar 14, 2008 at 10:23 AM, cdrick <cdrick65 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>  For the squeak site, I see two alternatives:
>>  -Seaside/Pier
>>  and
>>  -Aida/Scribo
>>  And as Janko seems motivated to invest time... I wouldn't mind, he
>>  does it in Aida...
>>  But maybe before choosing the tool, objectives should be clear ! And
>>  right now It's not clear to me if people want :
>>  (1) fresh and updated content + design, or
>>  (2) the next gen web site...
> Who, on the webteam, is also versed in Aida? We should have at least 3
> other people on the team who understand this engine for support.

Not that there aren't 3 other people. A number of people from the Aida
mailing list, including myself, have offered to contribute as able.

And who on the current webteam aren't able or capable to spend a minimum
amount of time to become acquainted with the technology (Aida, which is
arguably simpler than Seaside) when we would argue to anybody who is not
even acquainted with Smalltalk that it is well worth learning Smalltalk
to be able to use it. The same would apply to any Squeaker who wants to
contribute to the website regardless as to whether it is Seaside or Aida
of which neither is used in the current Squeak website and neither has
any member of the webteam stepped up to claim expertise in either
technology in order to persuade its adoption for use on the future
Squeak website. (To my understanding or memory.)

The number of qualified Seaside or Aida people is irrelevant. The number
of Seaside or Aida people willing to commit is.

Both are capable and qualified technologies on Smalltalk.

But what other volunteers do you see offering services that you are also
subjecting to such demands. Aida is not harder to learn or inferior to
Seaside in any way.

If someone energetically from the Seaside community made such an offer
would they also be resisted with as much adversity? I don't think so.

Currently the people volunteering time and work are Aida users. That is
not a bad thing, nor does it say anything negatively at all about
Seaside. Seaside is wonderful technology, but it isn't the only
technology. Nor the only Smalltalk/Squeak technology. Nor is Aida/Scribo
oh so Web 2.0 and Seaside so beyond.

I am sorry to seeming come out harsh here. But I think the negative
backlash against Aida/Scribo is unwarranted. It doesn't make Seaside
better. Seaside is well able to speak for itself, even alongside a
little bit of friendly competition from Aida/Scribo. People don't need
to put Aida/Scribo down in order to lift up Seaside.

In fact the work that Janko has put into Swazoo it is easy to run them
side by side.

And the Seaside advocates are no less passionate about Seaside than
Janko is about Aida. The fact is that currently no one from the Seaside
community has stepped up and said, we'll be happy to take care of this.
Not because they don't care. But they are busy people as are we all.

It just so happens that business interests and the interests of Squeak
happen to coincide for the Aida community. This is not a bad thing. Nor
is the result a bad thing.

Pros to my understanding for Aida are that Aida is far less resource
hungry. Aida is reasonably RESTful by its nature. And there are others.
Pros for Seaside is some of the magic that it can do. But is that
necessary to the task at hand? I don't think so. It isn't a requirement
for the current site. Aida is not a technology for static websites,
though it can probably handle that just fine. It does dynamic web sites
by nature. I don't know of anything off hand that Seaside can do that
Aida can't that is required or desired for the Squeak website. I maybe
wrong, but should there be such a deficiency, could we not allow Aida
the same opportunity to correct such deficiency?

My apologies to Janko if I speak for him out of hand. But if I am
correct, Janko is offering to provide a place for a migration of content
to Aida/Scribo independent and separate from the current implementation.
At such a point that the community deems it worthy to become the new
Squeak website, it could easily be migrated to the Squeak servers.

With this plan there is no risk or cost to the Squeak community outside
of that to the volunteers to assist Janko.

The most precious resource we have in the Squeak community are the
people willing to step up and do something. Here we have some one
willing to do so, and we are putting demands on them that we wouldn't
put on any other part of the community. Come on.

Unless you have something truly and honestly negative to say about
Aida/Scribo based on knowledge of Aida/Scribo and equally superior
knowledge about Seaside, then please be a little more generous about
somebody volunteering to help Squeak and the Squeak community.

> Brad from a later message:
> except I believe it's embarrassing not to use the language we so
> fervently and religiously  promote. If we didn't have a usable
> Smalltalk web engine, then I would understand. But, Seaside is
> available and it's great.  And if it's deficient in some way, we have
> the resources to change/add/delete/enhance in the community.

Absolutely, but Aida is also all Smalltalk, available and great. What
ways can you define it as deficient? I just don't see your justified
antagonism or adversarial attitude. Being Pro Seaside does not mean anti

If I have any factual errors in this email my apologies. I just felt
impassioned to correct the anti-Aida attitude that I perceive (whether
correctly or not).

It is wrong to choose Seaside over Aida merely because it has a longer
mindshare in the Squeak community. That alone does not make it worthy or
unworthy. If Janko and the Aida community can not deliver on what they
say. Then hold them accountable. But only if another community steps up
and delivers on the goods desired. Until then, give whomever a break.



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