On Fri, Feb 6, 2009 at 11:32 AM, Igor Stasenko <siguctua at gmail.com> wrote:

> 2009/2/6 Eliot Miranda <eliot.miranda at gmail.com>:
> >
> >
> > On Fri, Feb 6, 2009 at 10:13 AM, Igor Stasenko <siguctua at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >>
> >> The main reason, which prevents squeak to use as embedded solution is
> >> a structure of VM.
> >> - there are many points when it assuming that it runs standalone
> >> - the main interpret() function is an endless loop and not reentrant,
> >> which makes it hard to interoperate with host process , like Lua does.
> >> recent updates added a callbacks, so they can be used as a kind of
> >> workaround to solve that issue.
> >
> > I either solved these issues or found they were non-issues in the context
> of
> > VisualWorks in 1997/98 and made it function as a Web browser plugin.  I
> used
> > my threaded FFI that allows different threads to call-in and out of the
> VM,
> > so that the Smalltalk image was fully active all the time even when the
> > browser was not calling into it.  The VM was loadable as a DLL and was
> > supplied with an image file (which can be embedded as data, e.g. in a
> > Windows exe's resources) in an init call which returns once the image as
> > loaded.  The entry-points in the DLL can then be called from code that
> has
> > loaded the DLL.  Inside these entry-points are rendezvous-style
> call-backs
> > that the single-threaded Vm responds to.
> > I think (ok, know) the issue is not the image but the lack of a threaded
> > FFI.
> > For reference, the external doc to my thrteaded interconnect is at
> >     http://www.cincomsmalltalk.com/CincomSmalltalkWiki/VisualWorks+THAPI
> > I have internal doc somewhere which belongs to Cincom so if anyone is
> > interested I'll ask Cincom for permission to publish it and if they say
> yes
> > then I'll make it available, e.g. on my web site.
>
> i know there is a squeak browser plugin for a while. But its not
> really a solution.
> Its mainly a patches everywhere in VM to allow it to interoperate with
> browser, but nothing more. There is no any API which can be used to
> speak with VM from any host application.
> Of course, a host application may disguise itself as a plugin and use
> a plugin interpreter proxy protocol.
> So, it can be seen as an embedded VM, with only exception, that scheme
> is reverse: VM plays role as a master, and your application - slave,
> and VM telling you what to do by calling primitives.
> The most significant part of functionality is lacking: there is no
> support of a message send from host application to VM. Making it
> available would make writing a host applications much easier.


I understand.  My message said that I have solved the problem of allowing
"a message send from host application to VM" in the VisualWorks VM using a
threaded FFI.  This solution is also applicable to Squeak.

So if you want to solve this in the current Squeak a low-cost way is to
write a threaded FFI, i.e. extend the current FFI to support threads.

>
>
> >>
> >> 2009/2/6 Steve Wart <steve.wart at gmail.com>:
> >> > That's an interesting idea. Quite a lot of the momentum in Python,
> Lua,
> >> > ECMAScript, etc. come from their embedded-ness.
> >> >
> >> > Smalltalk was built embedded in an OS that it was never entirely
> >> > comfortable
> >> > with, although there have been many attempts at scripting Smalltalk
> from
> >> > other programs, Seaside being the most notable success.
> >> >
> >> > I suggest that this ideal already exists. The benefits come from
> >> > specific
> >> > implementations.
> >> >
> >> > It would be interesting to see a Croquet variant with a modern game
> >> > engine.
> >> > Smalltalk and C++ should be able to play well together.
> >> >
> >> > Steve
> >> >
> >> > On Fri, Feb 6, 2009 at 8:53 AM, askoh <askoh at askoh.com> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> I think it is good you dare to speak your mind. I also think that the
> >> >> Squeak
> >> >> community can take that. Keep your ideas coming.
> >> >>
> >> >> I would like Squeak to be callable from other programs so that it can
> >> >> be
> >> >> used as plugins.
> >> >>
> >> >> Aik-Siong Koh
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> Giuseppe Luigi Punzi Ruiz wrote:
> >> >> >
> >> >> > We have elections soon.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > I'ts time to think about the project. What we search? What new
> >> >> > developers search?
> >> >> >
> >> >> > I think, probably, Squeak, needs a refactoring on the ideas behind.
> >> >> > The
> >> >> > people thath wants etoys, use etoys image. Croquet uses his own
> >> >> > image.
> >> >> > Now, at the moment (2009), I'm 90% sure, the people thath go to
> >> >> > squeak.org, and get the latest Squeak, now, are developers
> searching
> >> >> > a
> >> >> > good smalltalk (something similar to VW but opensource I means) to
> >> >> > use
> >> >> > in their projects, not the use of Squeak as multimedia, or
> something
> >> >> > similar. I know this for all spanish people ask me about Squeak, or
> >> >> > developers "going out the list" searching Pharo, an approach to the
> >> >> > things I say.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > I like the idea about a console squeak (like GST) with the objects
> >> >> > living in memory, but not dependent of the "World", launching the
> >> >> > actual
> >> >> > Squeak World as an object (I don't know if is the actual behaviour,
> I
> >> >> > only dream) if you want, or launching something like VW (or
> Dolphin)
> >> >> > working over TK or GTK or WxWidgets or technologys like XUL
> >> >> > instead.....I like the idea of an UI Painter....I like the idea of
> >> >> > all
> >> >> > Squeak tools running over web too..well, this idea don't like it
> very
> >> >> > much :)..but I don't have the skills for all of this, for this I
> >> >> > offer
> >> >> > the ideas. But most important, is the community has vote for this
> >> >> > things. The community needs to stay informed about the movements. I
> >> >> > think, this, is the right direction.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > I don't know what you all think, but IMHO, it's the moment to get a
> >> >> > new
> >> >> > Squeak 4 from zero, trying to preserve the core classes, with new
> >> >> > ideas
> >> >> > and ambitions.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > I don't like very much the idea about all list hating me, but,
> after
> >> >> > this mail, I know you hate me :P
> >> >> >
> >> >> > P.D.: Yes, probably, I'm crazy too.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >> --
> >> >> View this message in context:
> >> >>
> >> >>
> http://www.nabble.com/-squeak-dev--Winds-of-change-tp21872826p21876368.html
> >> >> Sent from the Squeak - Dev mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Best regards,
> >> Igor Stasenko AKA sig.
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Best regards,
> Igor Stasenko AKA sig.
>
>
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