On 01.07.2009, at 06:28, Igor Stasenko wrote:

> 2009/7/1 Ramon Leon <ramon.leon at allresnet.com>:
>>> Bert, are you serious?
>>>
>>> Enough with the children! It's been done and redone and overdone.  
>>> The
>>> past and the future confounded. Why can't we live the present  
>>> living?
>>> You're talking about something that might (or might not) produce
>>> engineers in the next, say, 20 years? Smalltalk will be around 50
>>> years by then. I find it painful that our community wouldn't be a
>>> little bit more practical, for a change..
>>>
>>> Right here, right now.
>>>
>>> Ian.
>>>
>>> PS: I am so sorry... I don't even have spare children to furiously
>>> train on Squeak...
>>>
>>> --
>>> http://mecenia.blogspot.com/
>>
>> +10
>>
>> Seriously, stop talking about kids, who cares, I'll be retired by the
>> time they're useful.  Programming languages are tools that are
>> primarily used by and useful for adults, they should be aimed at
>> adults.  I want Smalltalk to be usable now, not at some unspecified
>> time in some imaginary future where it takes over the world by  
>> getting
>> kids before they've been introduced to other environments.  It's pure
>> fantasy to think this'll happen, it won't.  This is the attitude that
>> holds Squeak back and prevents anyone from taking it too seriously.
>> This is why Pharo will continue to steal mind-share and Squeak will
>> die.

This is so short-sighted I shouldn't even respond. Most kids  
fortunately do not live on their own. They have parents and teachers.  
Some of those are or have connections to developers. We are already  
starting to see growing interest in Squeak from developers worldwide  
because of that. Right here, right now. You might notice Squeak is  
getting packaged into various Linux distributions now. You think  
that's fantasy?

> +10.
> Let us separate the domains:
> 1. Squeak for developers who need a modern & sound smalltalk
> environment which fullfills their needs and
> 2. Squeak for teachers/children/endusers who will use a wonderfull
> environment produced by software engineers.
>
> If you don't have 1st, you can't progress in 2nd, because obviously
> developers do not like sitting in child room and pretend that they are
> sitting in the lab.


I came to Squeak and stuck around for more than 10 years now because  
it always felt like a project with a vision. A vision that goes way  
beyond the simple-minded "I want something like the other guys have  
just a little bit nicer". If Alan's group started with that theme 40  
years ago we would not have Smalltalk now.

Mind you, I never implied that work should stop to improve Squeak in  
the here-and-now (go back and read what I wrote). But for me every  
improvement fits into a larger context.

Squeak is a versatile tool for everybody. I've seen professional  
developers get excited about it as much as elementary school kids,  
high-school students, and PhD candidates. It's just a simple fact that  
the more "conventional wisdom" people have acquired, the harder it  
gets for them to appreciate the beauty of Squeak (and I happily admit  
that making the programmers' UI look less ancient would go a long way  
to make them give a second look).

Being an environment for professionals and learners alike has always  
been a strong point of Squeak. There is no unresolvable tension there  
that I can see. For example, the Etoys team started 2 years ago to  
develop a product that got shipped to 500 thousand users by now, soon  
it will be a million. They did that with only a handful of developers  
working part-time. Sticking to the base system version they started  
out with was the only option (as everybody who ever did serious  
product development can relate to). Now that the hot development phase  
is over, the changes can be folded back into Squeak proper.

I'm glad the Squeak community is made of individuals who care for  
different aspects of the system. Together we are creating a truly  
unique computing environment. And fortunately, there is a new home for  
those who cannot bear their "professional system" being marred by  
crayons here and there. Have fun with Pharo if that's all you ever  
wanted from Squeak. Seriously, enjoy it. Just don't bother those who  
think living under the same roof with kids isn't all that bad.

- Bert -