2009/7/1 Igor Stasenko <siguctua at gmail.com>:
> 2009/7/1 Bert Freudenberg <bert at freudenbergs.de>:
>> On 01.07.2009, at 06:28, Igor Stasenko wrote:
>>
>>> 2009/7/1 Ramon Leon <ramon.leon at allresnet.com>:
>>>>>
>>>>> Bert, are you serious?
>>>>>
>>>>> Enough with the children! It's been done and redone and overdone. The
>>>>> past and the future confounded. Why can't we live the present living?
>>>>> You're talking about something that might (or might not) produce
>>>>> engineers in the next, say, 20 years? Smalltalk will be around 50
>>>>> years by then. I find it painful that our community wouldn't be a
>>>>> little bit more practical, for a change..
>>>>>
>>>>> Right here, right now.
>>>>>
>>>>> Ian.
>>>>>
>>>>> PS: I am so sorry... I don't even have spare children to furiously
>>>>> train on Squeak...
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> http://mecenia.blogspot.com/
>>>>
>>>> +10
>>>>
>>>> Seriously, stop talking about kids, who cares, I'll be retired by the
>>>> time they're useful.  Programming languages are tools that are
>>>> primarily used by and useful for adults, they should be aimed at
>>>> adults.  I want Smalltalk to be usable now, not at some unspecified
>>>> time in some imaginary future where it takes over the world by getting
>>>> kids before they've been introduced to other environments.  It's pure
>>>> fantasy to think this'll happen, it won't.  This is the attitude that
>>>> holds Squeak back and prevents anyone from taking it too seriously.
>>>> This is why Pharo will continue to steal mind-share and Squeak will
>>>> die.
>>
>> This is so short-sighted I shouldn't even respond. Most kids fortunately do
>> not live on their own. They have parents and teachers. Some of those are or
>> have connections to developers. We are already starting to see growing
>> interest in Squeak from developers worldwide because of that. Right here,
>> right now. You might notice Squeak is getting packaged into various Linux
>> distributions now. You think that's fantasy?
>>
>>> +10.
>>> Let us separate the domains:
>>> 1. Squeak for developers who need a modern & sound smalltalk
>>> environment which fullfills their needs and
>>> 2. Squeak for teachers/children/endusers who will use a wonderfull
>>> environment produced by software engineers.
>>>
>>> If you don't have 1st, you can't progress in 2nd, because obviously
>>> developers do not like sitting in child room and pretend that they are
>>> sitting in the lab.
>>
>>
>> I came to Squeak and stuck around for more than 10 years now because it
>> always felt like a project with a vision. A vision that goes way beyond the
>> simple-minded "I want something like the other guys have just a little bit
>> nicer". If Alan's group started with that theme 40 years ago we would not
>> have Smalltalk now.
>>
>> Mind you, I never implied that work should stop to improve Squeak in the
>> here-and-now (go back and read what I wrote). But for me every improvement
>> fits into a larger context.
>>
>
> I never implied that we should drop supporting an educational software
> for squeak (eToys & friends).
> Just tell me: who is currently maintains eToys in Squeak 3.10.2?
> If there's no-one, then wouldn't it be better to cut it out and
> integrate later as a separate module/package (whatever you think is
> fits for it) by people who cares?
> When i come to shop to buy a bread & taking it to the cash desk, is
> there anyone yelling at me, that i'm also need to pay for a bicycle,
> because bread is not selling as a separate product?
>
> Please understand me, i have nothing against eToys. But i treat eToys
> as an application on Squeak platform, not as a core part of it. And i
> thinking that it should play under a common rules as any other
> applications do: keep it as separate package.
>
> Othewise, how many people next time will go to this shop for buying a bread?
>
>> Squeak is a versatile tool for everybody. I've seen professional developers
>> get excited about it as much as elementary school kids, high-school
>> students, and PhD candidates. It's just a simple fact that the more
>> "conventional wisdom" people have acquired, the harder it gets for them to
>> appreciate the beauty of Squeak (and I happily admit that making the
>> programmers' UI look less ancient would go a long way to make them give a
>> second look).
>>
>
> Don't you feel a loss each time another person , who at first moments
> seem really intrigued by the powers & flexibility of smalltalk runs as
> a hell after seeing the Squeak?
> Or is there something extremely valuable in keeping it so alien to
> others, that we can't change it and be more inclusive, more friendly
> and more welcome to everyone?
>
>> Being an environment for professionals and learners alike has always been a
>> strong point of Squeak. There is no unresolvable tension there that I can
>> see.
>
> Right , this is not unresolvable.
>
>> For example, the Etoys team started 2 years ago to develop a product
>> that got shipped to 500 thousand users by now, soon it will be a million.
>> They did that with only a handful of developers working part-time. Sticking
>> to the base system version they started out with was the only option (as
>> everybody who ever did serious product development can relate to). Now that
>> the hot development phase is over, the changes can be folded back into
>> Squeak proper.
>>
>> I'm glad the Squeak community is made of individuals who care for different
>> aspects of the system. Together we are creating a truly unique computing
>> environment. And fortunately, there is a new home for those who cannot bear
>> their "professional system" being marred by crayons here and there. Have fun
>> with Pharo if that's all you ever wanted from Squeak. Seriously, enjoy it.
>> Just don't bother those who think living under the same roof with kids isn't
>> all that bad.
>>
>
> We can live under the same roof. And i'm all for it. Just don't turn
> every room in this house to be a child room.
> We need a room for guests, rest room, a working room, a garage room,
> and of course - a child room.
>
>

If doors are all locked, corridor long and crooked, and no one gets
out of its own room, then it's not a house, it's a jail.

Nicolas

>> - Bert -
>>
>
>
> --
> Best regards,
> Igor Stasenko AKA sig.
>
>