Thanks for your response Nicolas,

> Hi Keith,
> I understand some of your bitterness, but I think that's the destiny
> of who involves in this community:
>   
Actually its not bitterness. For 6 years I have been a full time carer,
without pay, for someone who is disabled. As a result I have learned a
lot about my own selfishness, and detest selfishness in general. As you
pointed out the policy choices that Pharo have made are selfish. I
believe that that sort of attitude kills off the whole point and appeal
of OSS.

I am simply speaking up, and continuing to speak up because this has
rung alarm bells with me all along. The pharo team is basically a bunch
of students, and perhaps they could do well to learn few things about
the big wide world. I seem to remember that in the real world a "Not
Invented Here" attitude is generally regarded as a bad thing.
> doing the hard work is hardly ever encouraged, and you get promptly
> bashed for what does not work.
>> For example, I regard the fact that Pharo started with 3.9 when there
>> was no reason why they could not have started with 3.10, as a
>> significant insult to Edgar and the rest of us that put lots of effort
>> into 3.10.
>>
>>     
>
> You make a point here.
>   
Thank you... the point demonstrates an attitude, an attitude I want
nothing to do with.
> Pharo did have to redo most of (all ?) 3.10 anyway, that's a lost of time.
>
>   
>> As a second example I consider the fact that Pharo refuses to adopt or
>> contribute to MC1.5 with a view to adoption. MC1.5 included a merge of
>> several MC forks, and common tools are essential for cross fertilisation
>> within the community. I take their actions as a demonstration that they
>> are not interested in being community players or working with any
>> broader community vision that I we or anyone might propose.
>>
>>     
>
> Things are not definitive. They can still adopt MC1.5.
> On the other hand, there is also MC1.6 without Trait support 
MC1.5 and MC1.6 are the same, all MC1.6 does is enable SystemEditor.

2 questions...

1. who has the expertise to debug trait support in SystemEditor?
2. who would benefit most if it was fixed?

Answer to question 1.... The Pharo team has the expertise, since they
invented traits and know how it is supposed to work. I don't even use
traits aware coding tools (because I have never learned how to work
OmniBrowser)

Answer to question 2... everyone would benefit, so... my question, why
isnt it a high priority for someone, bearing in mind it was the 3.9 team
(aka pharo) that told us that we needed atomic loading in the first place.

The basic question I am asking is this "Who Cares?". This is really a
test to see if those who could care will care. The results are in the
pharo guys dont care, and so their project(s) is ultimately doomed from
the start.  Please dont try and tell me that selfishness is a good
thing, it wont wash with me.

When someone comes on to irc and asks me to help I help. When I have
asked the pharo team to help for the last 18 months with SystemEditor
they have done nothing, and in actual fact they end up doing the
opposite, and making work for everyone else.
>> They will not contribute to any of the above projects that are
>> maintained in public repositories as a community resource. Instead they
>> retain their own forks of SUnit and MC, etc.
>>
>>     
>
> That's a temporary pragmatic choice. They want to have control over
> the process and cannot depend on too many thrid party hypothetic
> achivements.
>
>   
Except that it was them that encouraged the work in the first place.
>> .
>>     
Ok so I chuck in the towel. There is no point in developng with Seaside,
Pier, Magritte, Squeak or Pharo for that matter. I don't own any of this
code.

Now I am beginning to understand what I am doing wrong, I am not
believing in "not invented here".

Keith