> On Thu, 02 Jul 2009 12:26:39 +0200, Norbert Hartl wrote:
>
>> Hi Klaus,
>>
>> as these are the times to deal with community and feelings your answer
>> is
>> a perfect sample what drives people like me away. I really don't like to
>> be offensive so please don't take it too literally.
>
> Okay, not taken. But what you wrote was against the active users of the
> bug report system, and I do not like you treat them this way. They are
> very valuable, have been very active in their spare time, reported and
> fixed things.
>
Oooh, I didn't mean anything like that. Maybe it is problem with my
english but I wouldn't understand it that way. I wasn't critizing any of
the guys that do the work. Most of them I admire because after some years
here I know what they can and I know what they do. So if anyone took it
the way you understood it I like to apologize. I just meant the state of
the tickets. This things grow without anyone being responsible. Just the
state is not satisfactory.

> In particular I don't like you saying "it looks like really nobody cares".
> Many things have been done to+with bugs.squeak.org in recent time, so it
> seems you are rather uninformed?
>
> This cannot be unanswered, you know what I mean.
>
I said it looks like really nobody cares. Is the sentence different if I
write "it appears"?? Sorry, but it does appear that way if you like at it
the first time. Still no offense meant.

> If you are not satisfied with the contents of Mantis, then why don't you
> do something against it? You could come back in a year from now and could
> tell "we've hunted them all down and closed all the unanswered cases",
> etc.
>
Yes, you are right. Everyone that is telling this all the time is right. I
do this myself occasionally. I could even state that projects like squeak
are suffering by people like me that only talk and do nothing. Everything
is right.

But it is exactly what I mean. There are bright people here and the topic
is interesting. But a lot of discussions end like the one we are having
right now. And that is the reason I don't have the feeling I can _grow_
inside this community because of this. It so hard to participate without
being a master already. I rarely post anything because of this and now I
remember why. And still no offense meant! I just let it go. I will first
see that I can do a lot of work in order to earn my next post...

... in the meantime I spent my time somewhere else.

>
> P.S. taking my message as a reason of your driving away would be a joke ;)
>
Klaus, it is not about driving _me_ away. And declaring it to be a joke
does not make it more harmless. I can just imagine that people that have
even less experience with squeak might get a even worse feeling about
this.

anyway, thanks for taking your time!

Norbert

>> As an introduction I
>> think I am making a good point that is close to obvious. Neither is
>> bugs.squeak.org a closed tool where I have to register first nor must I
>> have been working for years with it to judge about its state. I can just
>> look at it. All I wrote is just my impression how I encounter squeak.
>> And
>> I'm writing this even if I always have to think twice before posting to
>> squeak-dev.
>>
>>> On Thu, 02 Jul 2009 09:02:20 +0200, Norbert Hartl wrote:
>>>
>>> ...
>>>> For the new setup to work well there is still one thing to do IMHO.
>> Sooner or later the bug tracker should help in organizing and
>>>> documenting changes. But mantis is in an awful state.
>>>
>>> Are you a Mantis user? I checked reporter id's but didn't find one
>> matching your name.
>>>
>> Why are you asking this? For me it has nothing to do with what I wrote.
>> But for me as a squeak user it sounds like
>>
>> "Who are you to speak up against our work? What have you done to dare?"
>>
>> Maybe I'm sensible for this but it sounds like to put others first in a
>> defensive state. From this on in my imagination you are already wearing
>> a
>> grey beard. To me it doesn't sound welcoming at all.
>>
>> For your information. I'm a mantis user? yes. You could find me in the
>> bug
>> database? yes. I did ground breaking work for squeak? no.
>>
>>>> There are nearly
>>>> 2200 tickets in the database. Coming from the outside it looks like
>> really nobody cares.
>>>
>>> Except to those people who use it. For example, Ken has recently closed
>> bugs which have fixes in 3.10.x ...
>>>
>> That is what I said! I never said that mantis is not used or obsolete. I
>> was referring to the amount and the age of the tickets. But if you want
>> to
>> frustrate people than just say "Works for me". IMHO every other is
>> confused by a ticket system that contains tickets that are 5 years old
>> and
>> have a rather massive amount. But the biggest problem is that I can
>> easily
>> assume nobody of you has an overview over the open issues. So beside
>> being
>> confusing what are these tickets helpful for? If they are obsolete close
>> them. If they are real bugs nobody cared the last 5 years so they can't
>> be
>> that important.
>>
>> Norbert
>>
>>> /Klaus
>>>
>>>> A bug tracker with less tickets and tickets that
>>>> give an overview what is going on right now is essential. Maybe not
>>>> for
>> the gurus and old timers but for everyone else (e.g. me). I would like
>> to propose a cleaning initiative of mantis. I would expect a lot of
>> these old bugs to be obsolete by now. So a quick check if this bug is
>> still valid can be done. And then if it is invalid you just need to
>> close it.
>>>>
>>>> Norbert
>>>>
>>>
>>
>
>
>