2009/11/5 Miguel Enrique Cobá Martinez <miguel.coba at gmail.com>:
> I don't want to start a flame but so will end. Anyway...
>
> >From some weeks to date I have been wondering what is the point of so
> many little and not so little random fixes going to trunk (not
> minimizing the effort or quality of them, that they indeed have).
> I have entered the Squeak page and nowhere could I find a single
> sentence about the goals that motivated so may changes.
>
> Are they trying to fix Monticello (fix what)?
> Are they trying to fix input (unicode, japanese, russian, what?)?
> Are they trying to fix collections (were they broken?)?
> Are they trying to get some social results by experimenting with the
> number of automated mails about said fixes and reactions of people?
>
> This are some of the headers of the 524 (in my inbox) mails sent
> automatically for each single commit to the squeak trunk.
>
> [squeak-dev] The Trunk: Tools-bf.106.mcz [aug 20, 2009]
> [squeak-dev] The Trunk: MonticelloConfigurations-edc.60.mcz [aug 21,
> 2009]
> [squeak-dev] The Trunk: MonticelloConfigurations-ar.61.mcz [aug 21,
> 2009]
> ...
> [squeak-dev] The Trunk: Monticello-ul.331.mcz [oct 05, 2009]
>
> Some could say that they show that are a lot of work (because are a lot
> of commits) but you could also say that they are part of just two or
> three single goals (e.g Fixing monticello and fixing collections)
> although with each single goal implemented as 200 commits, all part of
> the same overall change. That way it doesn't look as much work being
> done.
>
> I tried to look in the squeak page for a list of goals or milestones
> that the individual commits are trying to fix and couldn't find any. So
> I can't get the overall picture. The squeak list is full of commits
> mails that for a new user say nothing. On the other side, the page is
> the same old outdated page with no hints about where the squeak is going
> on.
>
> What is a new user to learn about this? Or to expect about squeak in a
> give timeframe?
>
> Then is the issue of the blog vs. list discussions. Igor, has posted a
> terms of reference request for discussion in the blog, not in the list.
> This touch a point that Keith put in the table four or five months ago
> and nobody wanted to discuss in the moment? Has something changed now
> that the topic is worth discussing? The meat of the discussion is the
> role of the board. And that is something that I can't understand because
> four months ago the de facto solution was to give the board time to
> organize and later, they promised, they will show the road to follow.
> But I don't see that today. Today we are in the same point that before,
> without established responsibilities/limits and without a published road
> for squeak. Too bad.
>
> The squeak oversigth blog list the agendas for each meeting:
>
[snip]
>
> And so and so...
>
> Do you see the trend?
> Discussions and discussions from at least april 2009 and nothing that a
> external unknowing user could say about the future of squeak.
>

it would be a surprise to see a discussions about squeak directions
every two weeks, isnt?
What you see is a stuff which put on a table. If you miss something -
where you been and not proposed
the topic for discussion over these 6 months, which you think important?
Or do you think that board members should read people minds and
discuss unspoken thoughts?

As for Keith's proposals: first time i heard about them not long ago
in IRC chat, and i reacted.
Maybe he had mentioned this before, i don't know. But i think its not
fair to blame the whole board for not paying attention.
If he wanted to bring this topic to the table, then there should be a
clear message somewhere, easy to find.
But if such proposals siting somewhere in 20th post on a different
topic, then its not a surprise that nobody noticed it.
I repeat: nobody noticed! I hope you understand that there were no
insidious plans, full of secrecy behind the scenes to ignore such
request(s). Because if its true, then you won't be seeing this :)

As for movement, fixes, and overall progress:
board could decide what to do, but only if there is people willing to
do anything, or if there a two or more different views on same
problem.
But if there is no-one willing to contribute, making decisions about
directions is pointless, because there is nobody to implement them.

> Summary, squeak has no direction and we are not better now than 6 months
> ago.
>
> So finally, the question?
>
> Where is Squeak going?
>
> As said, I don't want a flame but it is really disappointing to see this
> community getting lost in the color of the bikeshed.
>
> http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/faq/misc.html#BIKESHED-PAINTING
>
> Board, do one thing: Make decisions not discussions.
>
give us something we should decide on and you'll get the decision. :)

> Put a list of goals move the boat that way.
>

Here my list:
- make it license clean
- make it modular

these decision(s) made a couple of years ago, and we still stick with them.

> Cheers
>
> --
> Miguel Cobá
> http://miguel.leugim.com.mx
>
>
>



-- 
Best regards,
Igor Stasenko AKA sig.