I think part of the problem is that, even assuming we can make a new 
ANSI standard, making every Smalltalk ANSI-compliant will break a lot 
(possibly all) existing applications.  This is a stiff price to pay, and 
a lot of homework.  Perhaps it would be better to offer cross-platform 
libraries that provide the functionality of collections, streams and so 
on, but in a consistent manner.  I'd hope that eventually the 
cross-platform libraries gain enough traction so that amending the 
original libraries is not as large a hurdle to jump over.

I am aware of Grease, and I think I more or less know what it does.  
Maybe not :).  Of course, writing a new, say, collection library is not 
easy (or even fun), but I think it is also an opportunity to e.g.: 
refactor the hashed collection hierarchy into something more meaningful 
and useful.  I have a hard time seeing how this refactoring will occur 
to original libraries without causing huge trauma (hence the cleanup 
doesn't happen).

Andres.

On 2/11/10 15:45 , Eliot Miranda wrote:
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: *Eliot Miranda* <eliot.miranda at gmail.com 
> <mailto:eliot.miranda at gmail.com>>
> Date: Thu, Feb 11, 2010 at 3:44 PM
> Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Pharo changing the game
> To: Pharo-project at lists.gforge.inria.fr 
> <mailto:Pharo-project at lists.gforge.inria.fr>, 
> johnmci at smalltalkconsulting.com <mailto:johnmci at smalltalkconsulting.com>
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Feb 11, 2010 at 3:26 PM, John M McIntosh 
> <johnmci at smalltalkconsulting.com 
> <mailto:johnmci at smalltalkconsulting.com>> wrote:
>
>     Er, maybe I'll rant here since it' seems to me this the day for
>     that. Perhaps flavoured a bit with
>     Ralph's accidental post about cilantro.
>
>     Should we not be talking about the Smalltalk 2010 ANSI proposal?
>     Why the lock in to the
>     Smalltalk ANSI INCITS 319-1998 (R2002) standard?
>
>
> I haven't seen much movement since Bruce kicked it off 
> (http://openskills.blogspot.com/2007/10/ansi-smalltalk.html).  One of 
> the hurdles was the amount of money ANSI wanted for participation in 
> the standard.  I for one couldn't afford it and couldn't see how 
> Cadence, my then employer, would fund it.  I think that goes for most 
> of the non-vendor community.  See Clay Shirky's TED presentation 
> <http://www.ted.com/talks/clay_shirky_on_institutions_versus_collaboration.html> 
> on institutions for why IMO ANSI is a non-starter.  ANSI is 
> irrelevant; it meets it's own needs, not the needs of the Smalltalk 
> community.  It can only ever create an obsolete standard.   We need to 
> design our own standard that meets our needs.  If we can design a 
> standard that is relevant the community as a whole will increasingly 
> adhere to it over time, and as that happens it will become more 
> useful, and, because it is defined by us, can evolve over time, both 
> in content and at a meta level in its standards-making processes.
>
>
>     I think this fits into Stephane's comment about moving forward.
>
>
> IMO, moving forward means finding new forms, not putting a new badge 
> on the same old corpse.  We need a sci-fi movie not a zombie movie ;)
>
>
>     On 2010-02-11, at 1:51 PM, Lukas Renggli wrote:
>
>
>     >> Now why don;t people want a better smalltalk?
>     >
>     > Sure, everybody wants a better Smalltalk.
>     >
>     > The ANSI standard does not make scripting impossible, it does not
>     > forbid first class instance variables, it does not forbid a MOP or a
>     > module system.
>     >
>     > The ANSI standard only talks about the basic Smalltalk syntax,
>     > Collections, Magnitudes, Streams. That's it. I don't think it is
>     > limiting in any way.
>     >
>     > Lukas
>     >
>     > --
>     > Lukas Renggli
>     > http://www.lukas-renggli.ch
>     >
>     > _______________________________________________
>     > Pharo-project mailing list
>     > Pharo-project at lists.gforge.inria.fr
>     <mailto:Pharo-project at lists.gforge.inria.fr>
>     > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
>
>     --
>     ===========================================================================
>     John M. McIntosh <johnmci at smalltalkconsulting.com
>     <mailto:johnmci at smalltalkconsulting.com>>   Twitter:  squeaker68882
>     Corporate Smalltalk Consulting Ltd. http://www.smalltalkconsulting.com
>     ===========================================================================
>
>
>
>
>
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