[squeak-dev] Hello squeakers
bergel at iam.unibe.ch
Fri Mar 26 15:01:09 UTC 2010
I dream about the following equation:
Squeak = Pharo + multimedia packages + Alice + Etoy + Sound
On 26 Mar 2010, at 09:41, Germán Arduino wrote:
> Hi Stef:
> I'm one of the guys being in both lists and trying to follow the two
> things and appreciating things of both and your mail is really very
> very good on my pov. I also appreciate the effort of people
> contributing with a positive attitude on Squeak AND Pharo, as the guys
> you mentioned. And don't forget Dale doing the same and several
> The Smalltalk community itself is so little, more little is the
> squeak/pharo and I think we can't afford not cooperate among us.
> I also vote for a long period of fun ahead, doing Squeak/Pharo or
> Pharo/Squeak :)
> 2010/3/26 Bert Freudenberg <bert at freudenbergs.de>:
>> On 26.03.2010, at 12:17, stephane ducasse wrote:
>>> Dear Squeakers
>>> I want to send you a message because I estimate Squeakers and I
>>> want to open the door to see how new relationship can be build.
>>> So consider that as an open hand - even if my english may let you
>>> think otherwise.
>>> First, Pharo is not against Squeak. We forked because we
>>> believed that we could not make Squeak move in any coherent
>>> direction. We are sure
>>> that you understand our reasons. Just think a moment about
>>> the amount of time and energy we invested in Squeak in the
>>> past (I wrote more than anybody else books on squeak, build
>>> tutorials, lecture support, videos....- with esug over the years
>>> we spent more than
>>> 30 kEuros in Squeak related actions) so deciding to go for
>>> Pharo was not an easy choice but a necessary one: At one point I
>>> was thinking to quit
>>> Smalltalk and go to see Ruby and Python for real. Pharo is
>>> the only way that I get back my fun in Smalltalk.
>>> So what are my dreams?
>>> For Pharo
>>> We want a clean, lean and fast Smalltalk. An implementation
>>> that makes other dynamic language jealous.
>>> We want a place where we/you can innovate. We want people to
>>> be able to invent THEIR future.
>>> We want a place where people can make money with it and build
>>> robust applications.
>>> Being able to experiment fast is important but for that the
>>> system should be clean, robust and flexible.
>>> Having a platform for experimentation requires that the
>>> platform is not experimental.
>>> About innovation I mean in no order:
>>> Support for multitouch screen, bootstrappable Smalltalk,
>>> immutability bit and its impact, ephemerons,
>>> new module system?, first class instance variables, using
>>> traits for real (like in ruby where any class can be a model
>>> without inheriting from model), VAT-like system?, event
>>> system like in AmbiantTalk?,
>>> I put ? because some of these should be implemented assessed
>>> tested... and understood deeply.
>>> About clean
>>> Clean network, clean event system, clean object kernel,
>>> better compiler (open - we got first class instance
>>> variable with no runtime penalties in one afternoon). Clean
>>> class builder...
>>> Now enough about Pharo. http://www.pharo-project.org/
>>> About Etoys
>>> I love Etoys (we translated the book and did more
>>> presentations of etoys than most squeakers) but I do not like its
>>> Why? Because it is bad. Any body that looks at it knows it.
>>> When I removed Etoys part from Pharo I'm sad but there is no
>>> other choices. Now it
>>> does not mean that I'm against Etoys and Etoys has the Etoys
>>> 40 image (note that we collected in 3.9 most of the etoys fixes
>>> with little support from Etoyers which forked way
>>> before, we did the same with the fixes of diego of Smalltalk). But
>>> again you can judge otherwise.
>>> About the ranting or the little war between Squeak and Pharo
>>> Frankly I'm tired about us ranting against Squeak/andreas/...
>>> will probably have them as Perl-6, Scala, Fortress. Now
>>> Squeak can remove them. I have no problem with that. Seriously
>>> this is your decision.
>>> People in squeak-dev can freely say negative points about me
>>> if this helps. I decided that I will not rant nor get negative
>>> feelings about that. I
>>> found the red pill :)
>>> *I* decided that I want to head to the future. So we will not
>>> rant nor make any bad statement about the past anymore. Not even
>>> report history or
>>> on old facts: if you were there you should remember, else
>>> there is the archive :). This is my last mail on the past.
>>> Frankly I have the best job I can dream about. I'm lucky just
>>> check my h-index for the fun, I have more than most researchers I
>>> know. In addition, I loved working and learning from people
>>> like lukas, adrian, nicolas, levente, marcus, ..... The next 10
>>> years should be the best of my life and I
>>> will take advantage of that. I want to have **10/15** years
>>> of pure fun and I will do it. I want and will create positive
>>> energy. Look at ESUG
>>> we are doing a great job.
>>> About cross dialect energy
>>> Now the key point of this mail. I **deeply** appreciate the
>>> attitude of people like nicolas, levente, and igor that do not
>>> bash us and help Pharo
>>> but also Squeak. I sent this message mainly because of their
>>> attitude. I'm sad to see all this (their) energy duplicated. We
>>> cleaned and improved a
>>> lot Pharo over the last two years (more than you may think)
>>> and we will continue. Squeak could have benefitted from it.
>>> Nicolas luckily for you
>>> pushed a lot of our fixes in Squeak already. I'm getting the
>>> fixes of Squeak that are interesting for Pharo. Now depending on
>>> the Squeak vision
>>> we could share some common things. May be we can build a
>>> better future together but not at all price. You see our goals is
>>> to get a clean, lean, flexible and robust system. If you
>>> want to share something with us let us know. You know now the
>>> vision of Pharo.
>>> Squeak may want to compete with us too. This is ok too.
>>> If you want to help us building our vision you are welcome. Our
>>> logo is a lighthouse and it means that it will stand and last long
>>> because it has to guide boats. So we will continue Pharo against
>>> tempests and giant waves :)
>>> The video is really cool (dan this is the one you wanted on
>> Thank you, Stef. That's a great peace-offering, and I happily accept.
>> I, too, hope that Squeak and Pharo will share as much as possible,
>> even if our visions are not the same, and the paths we choose to
>> get there are different. Squeak takes the slower route, trying to
>> keep strange things like Etoys working while refactoring them,
>> trying to be inclusive of every project from Seaside to Croquet,
>> supporting Traits but making them unloadable, etc.
>> It's great to see how fast Pharo is moving forward, although I've
>> only been watching from afar. I just subscribed to your list so my
>> message gets through. No time to get involved, my personal focus is
>> still on Etoys, and Squeak, as time permits. But I'll try to follow
>> a bit more closely :)
>> Merci beaucoup!
>> - Bert -
>> (Squeak Oversight Board member, speaking for myself, but I'm sure
>> this is a relief for everyone in the community)
Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu
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