[squeak-dev] Hello squeakers

Bergel, Alexandre bergel at iam.unibe.ch
Fri Mar 26 15:01:09 UTC 2010

I dream about the following equation:
	Squeak = Pharo + multimedia packages + Alice + Etoy + Sound


On 26 Mar 2010, at 09:41, Germán Arduino wrote:

> Hi Stef:
> I'm one of the guys being in both lists and trying to follow the two
> things and appreciating things of both and your mail is really very
> very good on my pov. I also appreciate the effort of people
> contributing with a positive attitude on Squeak AND Pharo, as the guys
> you mentioned. And don't forget Dale doing the same and several
> others.
> The Smalltalk community itself is so little, more little is the
> squeak/pharo and I think we can't afford not cooperate among us.
> I also vote for a long period of fun ahead, doing Squeak/Pharo or
> Pharo/Squeak :)
> Germán.
> 2010/3/26 Bert Freudenberg <bert at freudenbergs.de>:
>> On 26.03.2010, at 12:17, stephane ducasse wrote:
>>> Dear Squeakers
>>> I want to send you a message because I estimate Squeakers and I  
>>> want to open the door to see how new relationship can be build.
>>> So consider that as an open hand - even if my english may let you  
>>> think otherwise.
>>>      First, Pharo is not against Squeak. We forked because we  
>>> believed that we could not make Squeak move in any coherent  
>>> direction. We are sure
>>>      that you understand our reasons.  Just think a moment about  
>>> the amount of time and energy we invested in Squeak in the
>>>      past (I wrote more than anybody else books on squeak, build  
>>> tutorials, lecture support, videos....- with esug over the years  
>>> we spent more than
>>>      30 kEuros in Squeak related actions) so deciding to go for  
>>> Pharo was not an easy choice but a necessary one: At one point I  
>>> was thinking to quit
>>>      Smalltalk and go to see Ruby and Python for real. Pharo is  
>>> the only way that I get back my fun in Smalltalk.
>>>      So what are my dreams?
>>> For Pharo
>>> ======
>>>      We want a clean, lean and fast Smalltalk. An implementation  
>>> that makes other dynamic language jealous.
>>>      We want a place where we/you can innovate. We want people to  
>>> be able to invent THEIR future.
>>>      We want a place where people can make money with it and build  
>>> robust applications.
>>>      Being able to experiment fast is important but for that the  
>>> system should be clean, robust and flexible.
>>>      Having a platform for experimentation requires that the  
>>> platform is not experimental.
>>> About innovation I mean in no order:
>>>      Support for multitouch screen, bootstrappable Smalltalk,  
>>> immutability bit and its impact, ephemerons,
>>>      new module system?, first class instance variables, using  
>>> traits for real (like in ruby where any class can be a model
>>>      without inheriting from model), VAT-like system?, event  
>>> system like in AmbiantTalk?,
>>>      I put ? because some of these should be implemented assessed  
>>> tested... and understood deeply.
>>> About clean
>>>      Clean network, clean event system, clean object kernel,  
>>> better compiler (open - we got first class instance
>>>      variable with no runtime penalties in one afternoon). Clean  
>>> class builder...
>>> Now enough about Pharo. http://www.pharo-project.org/
>>> About Etoys
>>> ========
>>>      I love Etoys (we translated the book and did more  
>>> presentations of etoys than most squeakers) but I do not like its  
>>> implementation.
>>>      Why? Because it is bad. Any body that looks at it knows it.  
>>> When I removed Etoys part from Pharo  I'm sad but there is no  
>>> other choices. Now it
>>>      does not mean that I'm against Etoys and Etoys has the Etoys  
>>> 40 image (note that we collected in 3.9 most of the etoys fixes  
>>> with little support                from Etoyers which forked way  
>>> before, we did the same with the fixes of diego of Smalltalk). But  
>>> again you can judge otherwise.
>>> About the ranting or the little war between Squeak and Pharo
>>> ======================================
>>>      Frankly I'm tired about us ranting against Squeak/andreas/...  
>>> and the inverse. For example Traits are cool, Javascript and PHP
>>>      will probably have them as Perl-6, Scala, Fortress. Now  
>>> Squeak can remove them. I have no problem with that. Seriously  
>>> this is your decision.
>>>      People in squeak-dev can freely say negative points about me  
>>> if this helps. I decided that I will not rant nor get negative  
>>> feelings about that. I
>>>      found the red pill :)
>>>      *I* decided that I want to head to the future. So we will not  
>>> rant nor make any bad statement about the past anymore. Not even  
>>> report history or
>>>      on old facts: if you were there you should remember, else  
>>> there is the archive :). This is my last mail on the past.
>>>      Frankly I have the best job I can dream about. I'm lucky just  
>>> check my h-index for the fun, I have more than most researchers I  
>>> know. In addition,      I loved working and learning from people  
>>> like lukas, adrian, nicolas, levente, marcus, ..... The next 10  
>>> years should be the best of my life and I
>>>      will take advantage of that.  I want to have **10/15** years  
>>> of pure fun and I will do it. I want and will create positive  
>>> energy. Look at ESUG
>>>      we are doing a great job.
>>> About cross dialect energy
>>> =================
>>>      Now the key point of this mail. I **deeply** appreciate the  
>>> attitude of people like nicolas, levente, and igor that do not  
>>> bash us and help Pharo
>>>      but also Squeak. I sent this message mainly because of their  
>>> attitude. I'm sad to see all this (their) energy duplicated. We  
>>> cleaned and improved a
>>>      lot Pharo over the last two years (more than you may think)  
>>> and we will continue. Squeak could have benefitted from it.  
>>> Nicolas luckily for you
>>>      pushed a lot of our fixes in Squeak already. I'm getting the  
>>> fixes of Squeak that are interesting for Pharo. Now depending on  
>>> the Squeak vision
>>>      we could share some common things. May be we can build a  
>>> better future together but not at all price. You see our goals is  
>>> to get a clean, lean,        flexible and robust system. If you  
>>> want to share something with us let us know. You know now the  
>>> vision of Pharo.
>>>      Squeak may want to compete with us too. This is ok too.
>>> If you want to help us building our vision you are welcome. Our  
>>> logo is a lighthouse and it means that it will stand and last long  
>>> because it has to guide boats. So we will continue Pharo against   
>>> tempests and giant waves :)
>>>      https://gforge.inria.fr/frs/download.php/26678/pharoVideo.zip
>>>      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m2LeNBY_5gk
>>>      The video is really cool (dan this is the one you wanted on  
>>> waves).
>>> Stef
>> Thank you, Stef. That's a great peace-offering, and I happily accept.
>> I, too, hope that Squeak and Pharo will share as much as possible,  
>> even if our visions are not the same, and the paths we choose to  
>> get there are different. Squeak takes the slower route, trying to  
>> keep strange things like Etoys working while refactoring them,  
>> trying to be inclusive of every project from Seaside to Croquet,  
>> supporting Traits but making them unloadable, etc.
>> It's great to see how fast Pharo is moving forward, although I've  
>> only been watching from afar. I just subscribed to your list so my  
>> message gets through. No time to get involved, my personal focus is  
>> still on Etoys, and Squeak, as time permits. But I'll try to follow  
>> a bit more closely :)
>> Merci beaucoup!
>> - Bert -
>> (Squeak Oversight Board member, speaking for myself, but I'm sure  
>> this is a relief for everyone in the community)

Alexandre Bergel  http://www.bergel.eu

More information about the Squeak-dev mailing list