[squeak-dev] Re: Hello squeakers

Casey Ransberger casey.obrien.r at gmail.com
Sat Mar 27 04:28:28 UTC 2010

#1: Tests! I think we should think about finding common ground in tests for
things that both projects use and care about. For example, it makes sense to
a lot of Squeakers to be able to unload Traits, so we have a different
implementation from what Pharo has; but if all the Traits *tests* pass on
both platforms, then we either have compatible implementations, or we need
better tests. If we have single implementations of any two packages shared
between platforms, we should go with SUnit (first!) and Monticello.

#2: Seaside! It's my belief that the future of Smalltalk will ultimately be
founded upon the *applications* that Smalltalkers want to use. Everyone
loves Seaside, so we know this is common ground. And we don't have to stop
at Seaside, either. I'm sure there a folks in both camps who would very much
like to see the Magma tests passing identically on both platforms.

#3: eToys! Just kidding!

What do you guys think?

On Fri, Mar 26, 2010 at 8:38 PM, Andreas Raab <andreas.raab at gmx.de> wrote:

> Hi Stef -
> Thank you for your kind words. I'm glad that we all seem to be ready to
> leave the past behind us and move on into the future. I fully understand
> (and appreciate) your decision to fork Pharo and I have most definitely no
> objections to its direction and goals.
> Talking about goals, I think there's a lot of overlap here. We all want a
> small system, a cool system, a clean system, a fast system, an innovative
> system. So there is a good number of things where we could and should work
> together. And obviously, we all appreciate the numerous contributions to
> both Squeak and Pharo; neither system would be where it is without the
> contributions from the community.
> How a more effective sharing might look like is a bit open to me though. I
> spend most of last week thinking about what kind of setup could serve both
> projects (this is what delayed my reply in the other conversation) in a way
> that doesn't require either side to make unacceptable compromises but
> unfortunately I drew a blank here.
> It seems to me that neither Squeak nor Pharo are yet at a point where it
> could sensibly (i.e., without needlessly increasing the burden of the
> contributors) utilize a straightforward sharing mechanism. Any meaningful
> ideas would be welcome.
> Perhaps a better way to go about it might be to identify important non-core
> packages that we both intend to support and convince their maintainers to
> keep an open and inclusive attitude. For example, having Filesystem and
> Xtreams available in both projects might be a good start.
> Other than that, let me remind you that Squeak has an open contribution
> process and that many Pharo developers, including you, Markus, Adrian,
> Michael, Lukas and many more have been invited to be part of the
> core-developers group of Squeak.  All of you received an invitation to
> participate and improve Squeak when the trunk was initiated. The invitation
> is still open.
> Cheers,
>  - Andreas
> On 3/26/2010 4:17 AM, stephane ducasse wrote:
>> Dear Squeakers
>> I want to send you a message because I estimate Squeakers and I want to
>> open the door to see how new relationship can be build.
>> So consider that as an open hand - even if my english may let you think
>> otherwise.
>>        First, Pharo is not against Squeak. We forked because we believed
>> that we could not make Squeak move in any coherent direction. We are sure
>>        that you understand our reasons.  Just think a moment about the
>> amount of time and energy we invested in Squeak in the
>>        past (I wrote more than anybody else books on squeak, build
>> tutorials, lecture support, videos....- with esug over the years we spent
>> more than
>>        30 kEuros in Squeak related actions) so deciding to go for Pharo
>> was not an easy choice but a necessary one: At one point I was thinking to
>> quit
>>        Smalltalk and go to see Ruby and Python for real. Pharo is the only
>> way that I get back my fun in Smalltalk.
>>        So what are my dreams?
>> For Pharo
>> ======
>>        We want a clean, lean and fast Smalltalk. An implementation that
>> makes other dynamic language jealous.
>>        We want a place where we/you can innovate. We want people to be
>> able to invent THEIR future.
>>        We want a place where people can make money with it and build
>> robust applications.
>>        Being able to experiment fast is important but for that the system
>> should be clean, robust and flexible.
>>        Having a platform for experimentation requires that the platform is
>> not experimental.
>> About innovation I mean in no order:
>>        Support for multitouch screen, bootstrappable Smalltalk,
>> immutability bit and its impact, ephemerons,
>>        new module system?, first class instance variables, using traits
>> for real (like in ruby where any class can be a model
>>        without inheriting from model), VAT-like system?, event system like
>> in AmbiantTalk?,
>>        I put ? because some of these should be implemented assessed
>> tested... and understood deeply.
>> About clean
>>        Clean network, clean event system, clean object kernel, better
>> compiler (open - we got first class instance
>>        variable with no runtime penalties in one afternoon). Clean class
>> builder...
>> Now enough about Pharo. http://www.pharo-project.org/
>> About Etoys
>> ========
>>        I love Etoys (we translated the book and did more presentations of
>> etoys than most squeakers) but I do not like its implementation.
>>        Why? Because it is bad. Any body that looks at it knows it. When I
>> removed Etoys part from Pharo  I'm sad but there is no other choices. Now it
>>        does not mean that I'm against Etoys and Etoys has the Etoys 40
>> image (note that we collected in 3.9 most of the etoys fixes with little
>> support                from Etoyers which forked way before, we did the same
>> with the fixes of diego of Smalltalk). But again you can judge otherwise.
>> About the ranting or the little war between Squeak and Pharo
>> ======================================
>>        Frankly I'm tired about us ranting against Squeak/andreas/... and
>> the inverse. For example Traits are cool, Javascript and PHP
>>        will probably have them as Perl-6, Scala, Fortress. Now Squeak can
>> remove them. I have no problem with that. Seriously this is your decision.
>>        People in squeak-dev can freely say negative points about me if
>> this helps. I decided that I will not rant nor get negative feelings about
>> that. I
>>        found the red pill :)
>>        *I* decided that I want to head to the future. So we will not rant
>> nor make any bad statement about the past anymore. Not even report history
>> or
>>        on old facts: if you were there you should remember, else there is
>> the archive :). This is my last mail on the past.
>>        Frankly I have the best job I can dream about. I'm lucky just check
>> my h-index for the fun, I have more than most researchers I know. In
>> addition,      I loved working and learning from people like lukas, adrian,
>> nicolas, levente, marcus, ..... The next 10 years should be the best of my
>> life and I
>>        will take advantage of that.  I want to have **10/15** years of
>> pure fun and I will do it. I want and will create positive energy. Look at
>>        we are doing a great job.
>> About cross dialect energy
>> =================
>>        Now the key point of this mail. I **deeply** appreciate the
>> attitude of people like nicolas, levente, and igor that do not bash us and
>> help Pharo
>>        but also Squeak. I sent this message mainly because of their
>> attitude. I'm sad to see all this (their) energy duplicated. We cleaned and
>> improved a
>>        lot Pharo over the last two years (more than you may think) and we
>> will continue. Squeak could have benefitted from it. Nicolas luckily for you
>>        pushed a lot of our fixes in Squeak already. I'm getting the fixes
>> of Squeak that are interesting for Pharo. Now depending on the Squeak vision
>>        we could share some common things. May be we can build a better
>> future together but not at all price. You see our goals is to get a clean,
>> lean,        flexible and robust system. If you want to share something with
>> us let us know. You know now the vision of Pharo.
>>        Squeak may want to compete with us too. This is ok too.
>> If you want to help us building our vision you are welcome. Our logo is a
>> lighthouse and it means that it will stand and last long because it has to
>> guide boats. So we will continue Pharo against  tempests and giant waves :)
>>        https://gforge.inria.fr/frs/download.php/26678/pharoVideo.zip
>>        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m2LeNBY_5gk
>>        The video is really cool (dan this is the one you wanted on waves).
>> Stef
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