[squeak-dev] Squeaksource, Squeak and Pharo..

Benoit St-Jean bstjean at yahoo.com
Thu Dec 20 20:11:29 UTC 2012


You know what I like about CRAN (Comprehensive R Archive Network) or RAA (Ruby Application Archive) and so many other repositories ?  If I'm looking for a R library, I have to go to ONE place.  If I'm looking for Ruby code, I have to go to ONE place.  If I'm looking for VisualWorks code, I have to go to ONE place.

What prevents us from doing the same ?


 
-----------------
Benoit St-Jean
Yahoo! Messenger: bstjean
A standpoint is an intellectual horizon of radius zero.
(Albert Einstein)


>________________________________
> From: Frank Shearar <frank.shearar at gmail.com>
>To: Benoit St-Jean <bstjean at yahoo.com>; The general-purpose Squeak developers list <squeak-dev at lists.squeakfoundation.org> 
>Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2012 3:00:49 PM
>Subject: Re: [squeak-dev] Squeaksource, Squeak and Pharo..
> 
>On 20 December 2012 19:52, Benoit St-Jean <bstjean at yahoo.com> wrote:
>> Hi Frank,
>>
>> That's another problem.
>>
>> Let's say I'm a newbie.
>>
>> I quickly download a pdf, play with Colletion examples, then Date, then
>> Integer, then Stream, etc...
>>
>> Now, I feel like I want to experiment...
>>
>> Where do I get Squeak code from?
>>
>> Universes?  Gofer?  Monticello?  SqueakMap? Metacello?  Squeaksource?
>> Squeaksource 3?  SmalltalkHub?  Via ScriptLoader?  There are sooooooooooo
>> many references out on the web to "inform" you on how to get code that, no
>> wonder, any newbie will give up in 5 minutes if it doesn't load...
>
>What _should_ happen, and we're not there yet, is you go to SqueakMap
>and, if you can't find a package listed there you hunt down the person
>responsible and nag them until it _is_ there.
>
>You shouldn't have know or care whether a project's hosted on
>SqueakSource or SS3 or GitHub.
>
>frank
>
>> What I like about the Cincom Repository is that :
>>
>> 1) ONE repository, not many (or even worse, many ways)
>> 2) the code is VisualWorks only
>> 3) EVERYTHING is in one place, it's all there
>> 4) process is simple : connect, load, done.
>>
>>
>> -----------------
>> Benoit St-Jean
>> Yahoo! Messenger: bstjean
>> A standpoint is an intellectual horizon of radius zero.
>> (Albert Einstein)
>>
>> ________________________________
>> From: Frank Shearar <frank.shearar at gmail.com>
>> To: The general-purpose Squeak developers list
>> <squeak-dev at lists.squeakfoundation.org>
>> Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2012 2:35:19 PM
>>
>> Subject: Re: [squeak-dev] Squeaksource, Squeak and Pharo..
>>
>> On 20 December 2012 19:31, Chris Cunnington
>> <smalltalktelevision at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On 2012-12-20 2:23 PM, Benoit St-Jean wrote:
>>>
>>> FYI, I did post my remarks/concerns on the Squeak and Pharo mailing lists
>>> regarding this subject a year ago but it just seems like nobody read or
>>> did
>>> care.
>>>
>>> Secondly, as I said, a year ago, we should definitely have *separate* code
>>> repositories for Squeak and Pharo.  I just closed Squeak 30 seconds ago,
>>> being totally fed up with packages that wouldn't load...  Right now, both
>>> environments are polluting the code of the other and it's nonsense...  You
>>> know the kind of horror story where version 7 (Squeak) fixes version 6
>>> (Pharo) that now became version 8 (Pharo again) but that will be fixed as
>>> a
>>> combo of version 6 and 8 for Squeak?
>>>
>>> Yes, I agree. It's a problem. And all the points you make are valid. And
>>> this time, thank you, you came up with some examples with things examples
>>> you like and would like to see. Others reading this will find that useful
>>> for the process of finding a solution.
>>>
>>> I will say this, though. Sometimes, it's not as easy as it seems. By that
>>> I
>>> mean there can be a technical solution available that people do not want
>>> to
>>> use. They just don't like it: the interface; the experience; the process,
>>> whatever. That's SqueakMap. When the SqueakMap advocate shows up the first
>>> thing he will say is: "SqueakMap solves all those problems. It does all
>>> that." And you know what, he has a point.
>>>
>>> But if people don't want to use it... You see, Benoit, the problem is less
>>> about code and about something else. But smart are people thinking about
>>> this. They want a solution too.
>>
>> I think SM's real problem is that everyone forgot about it. And when
>> someone remembered it (was it Chris Muller?), it looked old and dated.
>> The idea's sound, the code might need some love, but it _works_. Here,
>> _today_. Not as shiny as yet another brand new idea to solve an old
>> problem, maybe. Maybe it needs some love, and a touch of makeup. But
>> you can go load a few packages right now into your 4.4 image.
>>
>> frank
>>
>>> Chris
>>>
>>> Can't we have something simple like the Cincom Public Repository ???
>>>
>>> Could you commit Ruby code to the CRAN (Comprehensive R Arcive Network) ?
>>> No!  You know why?  Those are 2 different beasts, just like Squeak and
>>> Pharo.  And seeing at which speed Pharo is moving away from "standard"
>>> (for
>>> lack of a better word) Smalltalk, this "problem will happen more and more
>>> and more.
>>>
>>> How useful is Squeak if all the code available is slowly becoming
>>> "Pharo-only friendly" ?
>>>
>>> In other words, we should setup our *own* SQUEAK ONLY repository, make
>>> sure
>>> people set a "platform target" (say Squeak 4.4 or 4.3) for migration (and
>>> tell the project owners that they should make an effort to port their code
>>> to Squeak 4.x) and start from there...
>>>
>>> Now, try to imagine a newbie who's trying to load  a single package (say
>>> ODBC), connect to a database, select one row and experiment with
>>> Smalltalk...  Oh, wait!  ScriptLoader loadFFi doesn't work! Oh wait! I
>>> read
>>> on the wiki that I had to compile the fields for ExternalStructure by hand
>>> because of a bug...  Oh wait, the ODBCEnh contains Pharo stuff...  Oh
>>> wait,
>>> Package X contains references to stuff that is "Pharo only".  Oh wait,
>>> I'll
>>> use this other tool...  Nah, contains Pharo stuff again...  I'll then use
>>> package Y then...  Oh wait, what's that Zinc stuff ?  Well, I guess you
>>> get
>>> the picture...
>>>
>>> Now, compare this with VisualWorks and the Cincom Public Repository...
>>> Connect, load, done.
>>>
>>>
>>> -----------------
>>> Benoit St-Jean
>>> Yahoo! Messenger: bstjean
>>> A standpoint is an intellectual horizon of radius zero.
>>> (Albert Einstein)
>>>
>>> ________________________________
>>> From: Chris Cunnington <smalltalktelevision at gmail.com>
>>> To: squeak-dev at lists.squeakfoundation.org
>>> Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2012 1:06:36 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [squeak-dev] Squeaksource, Squeak and Pharo..
>>>
>>> On 2012-12-20 12:25 PM, Benoit St-Jean wrote:
>>>
>>> How useful...  This is the kind of stuff that makes me wanna shout!
>>>
>>> <complaint>
>>>
>>> I just installed Squeak 4.3 to migrate some code I had on an older Squeak
>>> 4.x image...
>>>
>>> Loaded some of the tools I use, like ScriptManager to realize... That the
>>> newest versions are for Pharo! With references to stuff that doesn't exist
>>> in Squeak.
>>>
>>> In other words, the more commits to existing project in Squeaksource (or
>>> anywhere else where the code used to be "Squeak friendly" and/or developed
>>> for Squeak in the first place) the Pharo people do, the less and less
>>> those
>>> projects will work with Squeak!
>>>
>>> It's just as if Volkswagen would take over the manufacturing of parts for
>>> Honda and would adapt all parts for THEIR engines...  If I have a Honda,
>>> what can I do?  :(
>>>
>>> With Pharo moving away from Squeak (and most other Smalltalks in fact), if
>>> we don't find a way to clearly split what is "Pharo friendly" from what is
>>> "Squeak friendly" (I resisted using the word "compatible"), where are we
>>> heading ???
>>>
>>> </complaint>
>>>
>>> P.S.  This is going to be a nightmare if we don't act before the Pharo
>>> people have "adapted" tons of stuff to *their* environment...
>>>
>>> -----------------
>>> Benoit St-Jean
>>> Yahoo! Messenger: bstjean
>>> A standpoint is an intellectual horizon of radius zero.
>>> (Albert Einstein)
>>>
>>>
>>> Yea, it's an interesting point. I hear you shouting, but who are you
>>> shouting to? You've found a problem, and somebody™ is supposed to solve if
>>> for you. Is that correct? Who?
>>>
>>> I'm on the Squeak Board and from my point of view, you're observation
>>> would
>>> be more compelling if you proposed a solution to what you've discovered.
>>> If
>>> you just say it's a problem and somebody™ should fix it, I'm not that
>>> interested. Especially when you cannot even take the time to think of a
>>> few
>>> criteria of the problem that may be used to fix it.
>>>
>>> Here's what I can tell you. Squeak infrastructure is not responsible for
>>> every project in existence. You're first solution would be to talk to the
>>> maintainers of that project. None of the maintainers of ScriptManager are
>>> Squeakers. Might that tell you something?
>>>
>>> http://www.squeaksource.com/ScriptManager
>>>
>>>
>>> The Squeak Board is in the process of looking at this issue, though. And I
>>> can say what is on the horizon. The first thing we will have is community
>>> supported packages tested regularly in images in the Squeak CI server.
>>> There
>>> will be a list of packages, a top twenty list, say, of packages that will
>>> be
>>> known to be the responsibility of the community.
>>>
>>> Now, wouldn't it be good if there was something like SqueakMap, something
>>> separate from Squeaksource and SqueakSource3, that was a Squeak-only
>>> location for packages? They you'd know that you had come to the right "app
>>> store". We're working on that too. But I don't think it will be SqueakMap,
>>> which in my opinion has run its course. So were looking at this issue. But
>>> SqueakMap is a contentious issue. Very contentious. There are those who
>>> would like to put a stick of dynamite in it. And those who get extremely
>>> incensed at even the thought. (Actually, even the word, in public, like I
>>> just did. Counting down in ... four...three ... two...oh, look!)
>>>
>>> So, we're looking at that. And in the near future, say Squeak 4.5, there
>>> will be better guidelines around these problems.
>>>
>>> You could load the same packages into the new Squeak4.3 that you loaded
>>> before. If you want the latest Squeak in addition to the latest versions
>>> of
>>> the packages, well, then I think you may need to do some work. And when
>>> the
>>> infrastructure I just described is in place, there will most certainly be
>>> packages that, all that new infrastructure notwithstanding, will be
>>> nobody's
>>> responsibility but yours and the actual package developer.
>>>
>>> Chris
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
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